Skyrim talk:Ulfric Stormcloak

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Archive 1: Nov. 2011 - Aug. 2012

duel

from what i have been told, by him, and a few loyal nords, Ulfric challenged The High King to a duel, which is a tradition of some sorts for the nords, and used the voice during the duel, finishing him off with his sword (straight from his mouth), the empire only defined it as illegal because it was the high king and it was in a imperial area, who have no respect for nord customs. (Eddie The Head 00:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC))

The whole thing is not as simple as it may sound. Empire has respect for customs of each province, otherwise they would stamp out for example Tribunal in Morrowind. The point is that even Nords themselves are divided on who Ulfric really is. Some see him as a hero while others see him as a power hungry fanatic blaming him for the start of civil war and racial tensions in Skyrim ("Skyrim only for Nords"). Ulfric is also a former legionary. Listen to what Alvor has to say, for example. --Arkhon 22:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The Empire couldn't simply "stamp out" the Tribunal because Tiber Septim made a deal with the Tribunal in exchange for the Numidium, as part of the the Armistice of 2E 896. While Ulfric is viewed differently by different people, the actual challenge that he invoked against Torygg was part of Nordic tradition, which is why Torygg was compelled to accept the challenge - as Sybille Stentor addressed, he would have risked losing his throne in a new Moot had he refused Ulfric's challenge. Lobsel Vith 19:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

n Sovenguard the high king says he kept his honor in the duel, and can, "Ulfric say the same?" One might also note that Ulfric was caught outside of Pale Pass, one of the few ways in or... out of Skyrim.

Ulfric was ambushed at Dark Water Crossing not Pale Pass. Ulfric was traveling toward Windhelm or Riften possibly Falkreath when he surrendered with his party. I don't know whether we are told where Ulfric was heading specifically. The original plan was to take him to the Emperor for execution but General Tullius decided to execute him quickly rather than risk a counterattack and rescue, so they were going to chop him in the town of Helgen (without much ceremony for a Jarl if you ask me).

From speaking with Ulfric, Elisif, and Sybille (Solitude Court Wizard), one can get a pretty clear picture of what happened. The Solitude court believed Ulfric had come to petition the court and the High King to declare independence from the Empire. Skyrim was becoming more and more divided over the Talos ban. The High King was younger than Ulfric and respected his counsel. Some believe Ulfric could have convinced Torygg to declare independence. Instead, Ulfric issued a challenge in the ancient Nord tradition. This tradition stated that if the High King were challenged to an honorable duel for the crown of High King, he had two options: accept and fight to prove his right as High King or refuse which gave the challenger a right to call a new Moot to name a new High King.

Conditions: We don't know if the duel had to be to the death. We don't know if the new Moot had to choose a different High King or could reaffirm the former's claim.

Torygg was stung in his Nord honor and without any consultation of the court made his decision immediately to meet the challenge [a true Nord could make no other decision and save face]. Ulfric proceeded to use Unrelenting Force to throw Torygg to the ground and ran him through the heart with his sword. When the court "awoke" to the events, they set the guards upon him. Ulfric fled through the gates even as the guards commanded they be shut. Roggvir instead opened the gates allowing Ulfric to ride forth. [Roggvir affirms his decision was not wrong since the guards would have imprisoned Ulfric unjustly for winning the traditional duel.]

Most of the animosity over the duel comes from the "honorable" and "fair" sector. Ulfric was known to be in his prime with the power of the thu'um. To use the thu'um in a duel was an overwhelming advantage. He didn't even wait for Torygg to get up or yield before killing him. The mere speed of which Ulfric dispatched Torygg was an obvious statement not of honorable combat, but retribution against an unjust Empire and its "puppet king" whom Torygg represented to the growing dissidents of Imperial rule chafing under the White-Gold Concordant. Torygg's oft quoted estimation of the weighted duel was he faced death bravely, but can Ulfric say the same? Certainly Ulfric in making the challenge knew he risked little against his outmatched opponent. Balgruuf makes his assessment "because he knew that he could." Ulfric himself admits desiring to send a message to all the Jarls showing how weak Skyrim had become and the need for a strong leader--presumably in himself. "How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?"

The shock the court felt also imparts how disconnected they were from all the battles Ulfric and other Imperial veterans had fought in the name of the Empire. They were obviously used to flowering courtyards not battlefields. Life and death situations are more gruesome than chivalric. After dungeon-raiding against ancient deathlords, I would never say a thu'um death was a dishonorable one (and Torygg knew he died courageously if ignominiously). Nonetheless, Ulfric had complete control of the duel and likely as not did not need to kill Torygg to prove his point.

The next issue with the duel comes from the legal sector. The Nords had accepted by this time of their own volition the procedure of naming High King by the Moot. The High King having to defend his throne against every barbaric challenger was a tradition of ancient times long past. What the challenge represented was the wounded heart of Nordic Skyrim bleeding for her traditions (that were less barbaric like Talos worship). The national identity was being threatened by the Thalmor statutes of the White-Gold Concordant and the "marriage" with the Empire was falling apart creating divisions and rifts where there formerly were none.

The flip-side of the legal issue was that the Moot for a long time was merely a formality and not a true election process of Nordic Jarls and Thanes anymore. Essentially, the Moot was "fixed" and the Jarl of Solitude was chosen as High King/Queen automatically. The Empire had approved of this method and sanctioned it for many years. Skyrim didn't seem to mind this system until people became restless with the leadership. There became calls for a true High King elected in the traditional way (not necessarily by challenge but by a real Moot). This is why Ulfric does not want to allow the Moot until "Skyrim is free" from Imperial control. Otherwise, the Empire can "buy" the candidate of their choice and fix the election process keeping Skyrim's leadership pliant and weak instead of strong-willed and self-reliant.

On top of these legal matters is the High King's decision itself. The High King accepted an outdated traditional duel for his throne. So in a strange sense, he legalized the proceedings including his own death as a possible outcome. Traditionally, this makes Ulfric High King by right-of-arms. However, Ulfric pays homage to the modern and traditional times by desiring the Moot to convene to name him High King (or possibly another--but they'd probably all be too scared).

Nowhere does it state that the widow or widower of a High King/Queen automatically becomes the successor. This is the Empire-influenced method of simply placing the Jarl of Solitude on the throne. As the widow, she has been named the Jarl for Solitude by her own court; and by an Imperial-controlled Moot, she would be ushered into the position of High Queen as a formality. This process eliminates any self-governance or Skyrim input outside of Solitude's court. In the restless times, people were wanting a real Moot. This was impossible under Imperial control. 75.229.74.137 07:31, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

An excellently written summary of the situation. I would like to point out, however, that there is only ONE character in the game who says that Ulfric ran Torygg through with his sword: Ulfric himself. More, there is only one other person aside from Ulfric who calls it a "fair fight" - Roggvir, at his execution. Everyone else, including those who were witnesses to the scene and the in-game "loading screen" messages, either directly describes or indirectly implies Ulfric literally blasting Torygg to pieces with his shout. Stormcloaks apparently look on this with pride, while Imperial-supporters look on it with horror. Thus, though it may have been legally a "duel" and recognized as such by both sides, it was in practice a political assassination - everyone involved, including Ulfric himself, recognizes that Torygg had absolutely no chance to win, nor would Ulfric be recognized as High King without victory in a subseqent civil war. More, there is quite a bit of evidence talking the characters in the game (including Ulfric) and reading the in-game lorebooks that Ulfric was and is a hot-head, psychologically manipulated by the Thalmor while he was in their captivity to further their own goals of destabilizing the empire as they build up to their next war with Cyrodill in the future. The Thalmor don't want Ulfric to win OR lose. They want him to keep fighting, they want the the war to continue as long as possible to weaken Cyrodill, and are more than happy to play both sides against each other to accomplish it. And if Ulfric wins in the end, hey, the Thalmor's purpose is still served, the empire is weakened, just not as much as it would have been had the war been protracted. The only way the Thalmor actually come out on the short end of the stick is if Ulfric is defeated in a short, swift civil war that causes as little economic damage as possible. The Thalmor know that their persecution of Talos worshippers is causing unrest. That's precisely what they want to happen. Unrest, endless fighting, rebels in the hills - all this serves the Thalmor's ends. The very people the Stormcloaks hate the most, the very people who are the entire reason for their rebellion, are greatly aided by them choosing to rebel.71.210.193.3 00:17, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Image

Somebody should change that image as himself sitting at the throne... Its a spoiler for ppl that have not played the game...— Unsigned comment by 187.156.130.211 (talk)

right on the main page it says "This site's purpose is to provide information; therefore, most of the content contains spoilers." if you havn't played the game then don't go looking at the skyrim content. (Eddie The Head 16:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC))

Ulfric is a Jarl, specifically the Jarl of Windhelm, the player is aware of this at the beginning of the game in the dragon attack on Helgan. The image is of Ulfric on his throne in Windhelm. And as well, most articles on this wiki contain spoilers. Rhoan 20:59, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the spoiler is showing Ulfric's dead body at the end of the article. -_- jk. This page looks fine. 75.229.74.137 06:05, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Shouting

Whenever I attack Ulfric on a whim, and cause him to turn hostile, he uses a shout (visually looks like Fus-Ro-Dah), but doesn't speak any words. It insta-kills me between levels 10-20. 72.160.83.51 06:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

He's only got Disarm and Unrelenting Force, so I'm not sure what's going on there. I would guess that it's either damage from being thrown or you're mistaking the ragdoll effect for being killed. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:23, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I think he would know if he wasen't being killed. 86.25.220.153 20:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. Death can be uncertain. You should wait three days and poke with a stick. 75.229.74.137 07:52, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

There's documented examples of people thinking they were dead when being fus-roh-da'd around, especially in Forbidden Legend, and just not waiting until after the lying on your back cutscene to end before loading a savegame - and thus not finding out that their Dragonborns were actually alive. On the other hand, if a low-level PC got fus-roh-da'd by Ulfric, there's a good chance that Ulfric's axe would kill the PC before the end of the cutscene anyway. --Morrolan (talk) 17:01, 28 July 2013 (GMT)

Waaaaay back in my early Skyrim days, I used to mistake ragdolling for death myself, so it's possible this is what the OP is doing, especially since the game data doesn't show Ulfric having an insta-kill shout. I think this topic is settled barring any new evidence to the contrary. --Xyzzy ^Talk 02:41, 30 July 2013 (GMT)

Speculation?

"Ulfric must be in his 50's, because he fought in the Great War." was recently added to the notes, should this be considered speculation and therefor removed? //MrL 22:34, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Pure speculation and removed. The war ended 26 years ago, so he could still be any where from 44 to 56 (18 to 30) or even older. The Silencer has spoken 22:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Ulfric was 20 when he left the Greybeards, depending on which year he joined the war he would be between 46-50

86.25.220.153 20:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Could you possibly provide a link or a source backing up that statement regarding his age when he left the Greybeards? If so, it would be very relevant. Kitkat ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 22:48, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

When you first go an speak to Ulfric after you have learnt your first shout and before you go up to the Greybeards, he has dialogue where he tells you that he went up to be a Greybeard when he was a lad(the age of 10 rings in my head) and how he spent 10 years with them before leaving to fight in The Great War. For some reason, where I read or heard the age he was when he joined the Greybeards is alluding me, i'm sure he was 10, I don't think i imagined someone in the game saying that.

86.25.167.243 19:37, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) Sorry to say, but it is imagined. Neither Ulfric or Arngeir says what age he was. The only 10 in Ulfrics dialogue is the 10 years he spent at High Hrothgar and then the Great War started. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 20:01, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Ulfric says that Arngeir chose him when he was a "lad" (no specific age given) to study at High Hrothgar and become a Greybeard. Ulfric discloses that he could not adopt their "non-involvement" philosophy because he wanted to act on behalf of Skyrim and her people. In that sense, he is a "renegade Greybeard" who left before finishing his training. He further reveals that he and Arngeir are still estranged over his departure from High Hrothgar. If someone could post the transcript of those questions and answers, it would help clarify Ulfric's past greatly. 75.229.74.137 02:47, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Imperial veteran?

I read the thalmor dossier and it said he's a veteran of the legion and he fought in the Great War, so does that mean that some Stormcloaks are imperial veterans? — Unsigned comment by Awsomedawg (talk • contribs) at 14:27 on 31 October 2012

Yes, they are rebels of a sort, and most of the soldiers in the Stormcloaks learned their trade in the Imperial Legion. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 14:42, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

Yes. Legate Rikke and Galmar Stone-Fist among others fought in the Great War in the ranks of the Imperial Legion. The Stormcloaks reject the White-Gold Concordant as an acceptable peace. They fought to protect the Emperor willing to give their lives, and they returned shamed without the legality to practice Nord traditions in exchange for "peace." Ulfric summarizes "I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

However, the Stormcloaks did not form until after the Markarth Incident. Jarl Igmund and the Silver-Bloods lost control of the Reach during the Great War. The Forsworn established rule, and there are a few remarks to the effect that it was "not that bad" under the Forsworn. While the Empire recovered, Ulfric and returning soldiers were offered the free exercise and establishment of Talos worship in Markarth if they would "free" the city. Ulfric led a militia to Markarth and beseiged it on behalf of Jarl Igmund and the ousted Silver-Bloods.

Unfortunately, we have no unbiased source of the events. The "Bear of Markarth" relates an Imperial propaganda view of a massacre following Ulfric's victory. These stories are substantiated by a few prisoners in Cidna mine who say that anyone who didn't help Ulfric's militia was executed. What is told by Jarl Igmund himself is simply that Ulfric regained the Reach. (He also seems to allow the Silver-Bloods to imprison and execute anyone with impunity.) The Thalmor demand the Jarl arrest and deport Ulfric's militia to their authority. The Jarl complies as the Empire agrees with the order.

Ulfric is imprisoned by the Thalmor for the second time. While imprisoned, he hears of his father's passing and must write an eulogy from prison though he is an Imperial veteran not a criminal (except for worshipping Talos). He says "such is the love of the Empire for those who serve her." Curiously, none of the citizens of Markarth criticize the Markarth Incident harshly except the falsely accused "forsworn" who "crossed" the Silver-Bloods. None of these accuse Ulfric directly but seethe against all Nords especially the Silver-Bloods as the cause for their false imprisonment. Ironically but predictably, they take up the Forsworn's cause as a mileu to revenge.

Ulfric relates upon his release coming home to a city in mourning for his father, the "Great Bear of Windhelm." He is elected as the successor to his father with the expectation he will lead them against Imperial tyranny. Convinced that the Empire will not stand up to the Thalmor ambassadors or honor the Nord veterans who fought for the Empire, Ulfric finds the cries of other shamed soldiers ringing in his ears in Windhelm. It is these soldiers that ask Ulfric to lead and lead he believes he must to ensure the freedom of Skyrim from the Thalmor. They are called Stormcloaks in ridicule, but soon it becomes their mantle of pride in their fight for freedom--freedom of worship and independence for Skyrim (to annul Imperial law imposed through the White-Gold Condordant).

Speculation:

The Markarth Incident ensured Ulfric would be re-captured and turned over to the Thalmor since the Empire would comply readily to the demands of the White-Gold Concordant (including the ban on Talos worship) to avoid re-entering into war so soon. This incident played upon Ulfric's strong religious beliefs which the Thalmor undoubtedly gathered when he was captured during the Great War. Once in the Thalmor's hands a 2nd time after the Markarth Incident, his release which was delayed until after his father's death and the refusal to allow him to attend his father's funeral were undoubtedly orchestrated to estrange Ulfric from the Empire (which did not act to secure his release); but he also became "uncooperative" which suggests that the Thalmor could no longer directly blackmail or manipulate him after his father's death. [It is also possible that his father became ill due to his son's imprisonment and disgrace.]

What the Thalmor were able to get from Ulfric (if anything) between the Great War and the Markarth Incident is unclear. But they claim to have contacted him likely through Elenwen.

The most elusive and vague Dossier Lines remain thus:
"After the [Great] war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

His status as an "asset" was made after they learned he was the son of the Jarl of Windhelm. Which simply meant they knew they could potentially use such a man whether he were willing or not.

Ulfric is a complicated man; however, he seems to honestly believe in the free worship of Talos and an independent Skyrim as necessary to defy the Aldmeri Dominion. (This conviction to abandon the Empire fostered by the leadership's lack of standing up for Talos worshippers and veterans in the Markarth Incident and in general after the Great War.) That being said, his solution to fight the Empire by cutting a swath through his former comrades-in-arms seems--counterproductive and a bit radical. However, it is hard to believe he would ever be a willing operative in any way for the Thalmor. Even Thorvald says "I'd like to believe I'd hold out against their tortures forever, but I don't know." Thalmor agents in the Embassy remark "Everyone talks eventually." I doubt a man who so strongly opposed the Thalmor would willing give them the time of day except under duress. Ulfric demands Elenwen be removed from the council at High Hrothgar before negociations commence. This would not be the position of a spy, informant, or colleague. It is this very request which seems arbitrary and demanding that seems out of place.

When Ulfric is captured during the Great War was likely near the end since "he broke" and provided information on the Capitol only after it had fallen (making his information inconsequential though he was made to believe it was "crucial"). How long after the war ended he was imprisoned is unclear but he must have been allowed to escape shortly after since he made it back to Skyrim with other returning soldiers in time to hear of the "Call to Arms" issued to reclaim Markarth. His false belief that he betrayed his allies might have encouraged his acceptance of Jarl Igmund's plea to retake Markarth in order to redeem himself.

It could be merely Ulfric's impetuous actions in defiance of the White-Gold Concordant were the "proof" of his worth which were bonuses to their "strategic goals." But why the Thalmor contacted Ulfric and if anything was directly gained is unknown. 75.229.74.137 05:44, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Whoa. I wanted to know a little, but this is crazy. Errrrrrrrrrrr, thanks? — Unsigned comment by Awsomedawg (talk • contribs) at 22:09 on 4 March 2013

Elewen seems to be the one who tortured Ulfric, which is likely why he is so opposed to her presence at the peace talks. He even eludes to this in his dialogue to her. As for whether Ulfric's solution is "counterproductive", that's certainly a matter of debate and opinion that countless people have disagreed on. Lobsel Vith (talk) 16:34, 18 March 2013 (GMT)

Legitimacy of Ulfric's use of the Thu'um

One think it would be nice to see mentioned in the article in more detail is Ulfric's study of the Thu'um, and subsequent betrayal of the Way of the Voice. One thing that seemed a little unclear (to me at least) is whether learning the Thu'um is an honour, or if it is joining the Greybeards that is the honour, since they've been such a traditional part of Skyrim for some time. The voice is a kind of strange thing for nords who almost universally despise magic, and yet the Stormcloaks are fine with Ulfric going around using shouts, which in some ways are much more powerful than other magic, and in spite of the fact that he is going entirely against the teachings of the Greybeards, though a lot of people probably don't realise the difference since the Greybeards are so reclusive.

Anyway, it would be good if someone better informed could briefly cover his status with the Greybeards at the time of the Skyrim game; I dunno if there is any good information to cite though, as like I say, it's never been quite clear when I played the game. Haravikk (talk) 15:44, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

If you think the issue lacks clarity, you're not alone. Unfortunately, ambiguity in the game seems to prevent us from going into greater detail. Some things suggest the Greybeards are very selective about who they train; other things suggest that virtually anyone with particular talent could attempt to become one of them, and only a rare few can make it through the rigors of their training and lifestyle. As you can see from the discussions here and here, there's not much we can really say about the legitimacy of Ulfric's use of the thu'um without making assumptions or delving into original research. Bethesda likely kept the issue vague on purpose so that it's more difficult to discern whether Ulfric is a hero or villain and allow players to forge their own stories. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 16:00, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

Ah, very true and yeah it does seem a big issue. Still, I don't see anywhere in the article that discusses his standing with the Greybeards, I believe Arngeir does comment on it? I may have missed the note if there is one, but it seems relevant, and ought to fit just after his mentioning how any Nord can learn the voice if they have the ambition. -- Haravikk (talk) 12:41, 12 November 2012 (GMT)

History summary

"Prior to the rebellion, according to various sources, Ulfric had formerly fought for the Imperial Legion during the Great War between the Thalmor and the Empire; it was said that he was a prisoner of war, captured and interrogated by the Thalmor Ambassador Elenwen, until he was allowed to escape. Sometime after the Great War had ended, Ulfric also was said to have been a veteran of a war between the Nords and the Forsworn. According to many inhabitants of the Reach, when the Forsworn had began a massive uprising of their own against the Nordic population, during and shortly after the Great War, Ulfric was one of the prominent commanders of the Nords, as he had decimated the Forsworn presence in Markarth with his Thu'um."

While I was transcluding the lore intro, I removed this paragraph about Ulfric's history, as unlike everything else on the page, it was entirely about past events unrelated to the game experience. It also gives a piecemeal account, some of the wording in the paragraph was confusing (that last sentence, mainly), it doesn't have the benefit of references, and it seemed like we were doing a bit of editorializing in giving what we considered the "highlights" of his past. I just thought I should point it out because I don't typically remove information from a page when making a transclusion. I figured we can leave the lore page to do the heavy lifting on Ulfric's history, because we know quite a bit about him. Alternatively, we could transclude Ulfric's entire pre-Skyrim history from the lore page; it would only require minor changes to each page to mesh them. If anyone feels strongly about having a independent, shorter history summary included on this page instead, the third option is to re-add one, of course, but I think we can craft one that has a bit more of a comprehensive narrative to it than the above does. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 05:12, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

Personally, I feel that such an important character should have (dare I say) all his history included on his page. I'm not really sure if that's acceptable for NPC pages here, but I think moving it all over to the lore namespace would be a shame. Admittedly, I know that's not really have a solid reason, but personally I like to read about the characters backgrounds on the same page as the game info, rather than having to find the lore page. --Jimeee (talk) 09:16, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

Does anyone else want Ulfric's whole history transcluded onto this page? It wouldn't be unprecedented; we did it for Dagoth Ur and his Morrowind page. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 23:32, 23 May 2013 (GMT)

He's a major character in Skyrim; also, transcluding would centralize the edits of his history, and make it easier to keep it accurate. I'm in favour. --Morrolan (talk) 17:53, 26 July 2013 (GMT)

Transcluding more of the lore page would not centralize the edits of his history. Edits to Skyrim content have dropped off; it's not unusually difficult for us to keep Ulfric's info accurate now. The page in its current state has just been elected to be a FA, and the voters clearly must not think that transcluding his entire history would be a substantial improvement, else they would've advocated for it during the voting process. If a reader goes to Ulfric's lore page, it's reasonable to assume they will want his full history represented there. However, when a reader comes to this page, it's reasonable to assume they're looking for information which is relevant to their game experience. His related quests, inventory, game stats, bugs, etc. Ulfric's full history would just get in the way of all that. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 19:51, 26 July 2013 (GMT)

Combat dialogue

A lot of Ulfric's listed combat dialogue is standard Nord or Stormcloak combat dialogue. Should we list the regular combat dialogue here? The page is already pretty big; it would seem to make more sense to just list what's peculiar to Ulfric. --Morrolan (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2013 (GMT)

I think it's pretty standard to only list dialogue that is unique to an NPC in their article, rather than repetitively adding "Sovngarde awaits you!" to every NPCs page. --Xyzzy ^Talk 02:46, 30 July 2013 (GMT)

Ulfric's remains.

Is Ulfric's body supposed never to disappear? --95.233.145.170 10:53, 5 August 2013 (GMT)

I'd assume yes, since it never does. It makes a nice trophy for Jarl Brunwulf, sure, but you'd think it'd start stinking the place up after a few days. Oh well, if it gets in your way, shove it in a little corner in the kitchen, it's what I do (when I don't just disable it). Vicano (talk) 10:56, 5 August 2013 (GMT)

Ahah, yeah, poor Ulfric, he was a deluded maniac, but no one would deserve that!

I play on the Xbox, not on the PC, so I have no access to all those interesting features... But thanks for your quick and precise answer! --95.233.145.170 10:58, 5 August 2013 (GMT)

Spoken like a true Imperial my friend, you're welcome. I play on PS3 and PC so I'm alright. Vicano (talk) 11:22, 5 August 2013 (GMT)

Ulfric's body being permanent has got to be a bug. There will be two Ulfric's then. One in Sovngarde, and one in his Palace. Dragon Guard (talk) 12:06, 5 August 2013 (GMT)

Sovngarde is the Nordic afterlife, the home of a persons soul. Ulfric's soul, if he is killed goes to Sovngarde, not his physical body. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 17:42, 5 August 2013 (GMT)

It never does? Tullius' body disappears if you stay away from Solitude long enough. Has anyone tried staying away from Windhelm for 30 days after Battle for Windhelm and then returning to see if he's still there? --Morrolan (talk) 23:57, 6 August 2013 (GMT)

It's already noted on the page that it never despawns. Might be worth moving to the bugs section though, since this definitely doesn't seem intended. —Legoless (talk) 00:06, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

(←) Done. This was fixed by version 1.0 of the USKP. I'm pretty shocked that it made it this long without being noted. --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:22, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

Combat Dialogue Duplication

I do not understand. One minute you say it is duplication, I use Control Find and cannot find the same lines more than once. I am only adding conditions here. I think someone should do some explaining here. Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 21:08, 25 August 2013 (GMT)

Are you serious? The lines are there, even the ridiculously un-notable "Hahahaha!". Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:12, 25 August 2013 (GMT)

Am I serious? Yes. I am serious. It is just that, I am only adding conditions for combat lines, not duplicating the combat lines. Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 21:16, 25 August 2013 (GMT)

In your multiple edits, you added "Die dog!" (not unique), another "Hahaha!" line, and "Talos smite you!" Also, all of this dialogue is "combat dialogue" which is conditional enough for the set of dialogue on this page. — ABCface^◥ 21:21, 25 August 2013 (GMT)

Oh come on here. This is ridiculous. We can have conditions on no problem. But this talk about leaving the dialogue alone, just because it was a "Featured Article" Doesn't mean there is not more to add. Every little bit helps. So just let the dialogue conditions go on there, and remove the generic dialogue. It is because some of the dialogue is used again for different combat conditions, but with the SAME dialogue lines. Get it now? Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 21:29, 25 August 2013 (GMT)

I'd advise you to calm down and remember your 1RR, first of all. Secondly, yes, we (yes, I'm only now speaking but I've been watching all this, so I include myself in the 'we') understand where you're coming from: unfortunately however, the fact remains that we don't need to go so far in-depth with the "conditions". As ABCface said above, it's still all combat dialogue; we don't need to know more about it than that. Recognizing this removes any need for the sections you've added repeatedly, as well as the duplicate lines it causes. --_¿Vulpa^? 01:03, 26 August 2013 (GMT)

(←) Oh, come on. It should have conditions. But tell me this: If someone put the combat dialogue into a wikitable, would you object? Yes or no. Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 09:04, 26 August 2013 (GMT)

Condition	Dialogue
Attacking an enemy	"Talos smite you!"'
	"Die dog!"
Engaging an enemy	"Talos smite you!"
	"Sovngarde awaits!"
	"This should be fun!"
Taunting an enemy
	"I'm having fun, are you?"
	"Call yourself a warrior?"
	"You're losing a lot of blood. Maybe you should sit down for a moment."
	"Come on! I dare you!"
	"Come on, at least try to hurt me."
	"You call this a fight?"
	"Wake me up when you're ready to fight me for real."
	"You want me to close my eyes? Would that even things up a little?"

If you are in the Imperial Legion, he may taunt you by saying: "Die Imperial!" or "Where's your precious Emperor now?"

What do you think about this dialogue wikitable? Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 15:57, 26 August 2013 (GMT)

If he actually had this much unique combat dialogue, it might be best displayed in table form, but from what I'm seeing here, it doesn't sound like he does. If he has only a handful of unique combat lines, it seems to me it would be best incorporated into the article in paragraph form. --Xyzzy ^Talk 17:20, 26 August 2013 (GMT)

i prefer it in table form. Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 18:20, 26 August 2013 (GMT)

At the end of the day, it's not about what you prefer. It's about what is best for the wiki in terms of ease, usefulness, and uniformity. •WoahBro^►talk 20:22, 26 August 2013 (GMT)

Agreed with both WoahBro and Xyzzy. Sorry DG, it's a nice table and all, but it's simply not necessary. As much as we don't need to add in the conditions (we'll have to agree to disagree on that, no?), we don't need to add in dialogue that isn't unique. It's just not noteworthy that he says "die, dog", because there're plenty of other characters that say that as well. It's therefore not something to put on his own page, because it's not unique to him. --_¿Vulpa^? 12:19, 27 August 2013 (GMT)

Combat Dialogue Layout

I am here because I want the combat dialogue to be in wikitable form.

I want to hear some thoughts before I do anything.

Leave your comment below. Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 18:33, 25 October 2013 (GMT)

Dragon Guard, if you think the dialogue should be in wikitable form, you need to to make an argument for it and tell us how a wikitable is better. If you want it changed, you need to convince other people that it should be changed. --AN|L (talk) 19:14, 25 October 2013 (GMT)

Not only that, but you have to remember that your personal preferences are not necessarily how to go about editing. You have previously engaged in edit warring on this exact page about this exact topic, and the previous consensus was to leave the format as is. Consensus is the way of the wiki, and sometimes you have to accept that your opinion and the consensus is not the same. Unless consensus changes, please refrain from continuing to go against it. — ABCface^◥ 19:55, 25 October 2013 (GMT)

I agree with the previous consensus that paragraph form works better. No new information has been presented since the last discussion, so the table stays off the page until consensus changes (that's IF it changes). ThuumofReason (talk) 00:57, 26 October 2013 (GMT)

I agree that the current paragraph format for dialogue looks better. Putting it in table form gives it undue emphasis, IMO. --Xyzzy ^Talk 02:17, 26 October 2013 (GMT)

#Alphabetface, are you saying that I can't have my own way all the time? Someone (I don't know who), has agreed that the layout was good when the article was featured. If there were just people saying: "Yeah, the article is very good." to feature it, then there isn't evidence of users thinking the combat dialogue layout is good as it is. If there are any comments of users accepting the combat dialogue layout and an admin agreeing with the oppose or support on that, post the comment here or link the comments about that. Everything was pretty much an opinion, and there were enough opinions on how the dialogue layout is now.

For me wanting the table for combat dialogue, there is one obstacle that stands in my way: Consensus.

I can gain the wikitable back. Nothing is impossible, you know. But, again, I need to state a lot of pros for it and have the upper hand. DG^T•C• 19:28, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

(←) Dragon Guard, nobody gets their own way all the time on the wiki. If you genuinely believe that you should have your own way all of the time, then this probably isn't the place for you. If that was just a sarcastic comment, it was a poor decision. That comment could be considered as a personal attack.

Yes, people said that this article is very good. So good, in fact, that it was chosen to be a Featured Article on the site. As you can see here, when it was featured, there was no dialogue in wikitable form. Therefore, it doesn't need a wikitable to be a great article. There isn't enough evidence that people didn't think about how it would be with it? Why should they? It isn't needed. It just isn't needed. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

As for the rest of that paragraph, there is no conversation "supporting" the dialogue format the way it currently is because why should there be one? No one has had a problem with it until now.

Yes, your obstacle is consensus. The only obstacle on the entire wiki for just about anything is consensus. It hasn't changed then, and it hasn't changed now. Sure, everything is possible, but when nobody in an entire community supports something, it isn't going to happen.

One last thing, all of these 'missions' (for lack of a better term) of yours from before your block (this wikitable, Bruma Investigator Guard, etc.) haven't changed since they were first brought up. Just because a couple of months passed doesn't mean we've completely changed our minds. It doesn't work like that. I advise that you seek genuine improvements to the wiki and not just changes just because you like them better a certain way. •WoahBro^►talk 20:20, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

What makes you think my comment could be a personal attack? DG^T•C• 21:17, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

What I mean is: How can that comment be a personal attack when I only asked if that's what Alphabetface meant? DG^T•C• 22:05, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

I said it could be seen as a personal attack if it was a sarcastic statement. Sarcasm in a serious conversation usually comes across as derogatory and belittling. If your question for ABC wasn't sarcastic, see my above response. •WoahBro^►talk 22:09, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

Dragon Guard, just drop it. We've had this discussion many times in many different forms. You had an entire month to read our policies and observe our community discussions to see how things work around here, and yet you clearly haven't learned anything since you were blocked. Consensus is not an obstacle to be overcome; it is not something that can be overcome. If, after all that's happened, you are still incapable of understanding that, then you're on the wrong site. I hate to put it so bluntly, but I feel we've been patient enough in explaining things to you up until now, and at this point there's really nothing more any of us can do to help you. As WoahBro said, if you can't respect community decisions, then your interests would be better served somewhere else. ThuumofReason (talk) 15:11, 28 October 2013 (GMT)

I think for the best of the wiki. Every editor thinks for the best of the wiki. I thought it would look better in wikitable format but everyone disagreed with me.

#ThuumofReason, do you think that it's pointless of me to be bringing up old suggestions when they have been dealt with? DG^T•C• 20:48, 28 October 2013 (GMT)

(←) Unless there is anything more to discuss about the article this topic should be considered closed, any other issues should be addressed on their proper pages. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:10, 28 October 2013 (GMT)

Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak

Just because a recent edit removed the vn and it is not immediately obvious, why he is named such ingame: This is done by the quest DialogueWindhelm which overwrites the name "Ulfric Stormcloak" with the Jarl <BaseName> message. This is generic and done in similar fashion with the other Jarls. --Alfwyn (talk) 19:00, 21 March 2014 (GMT)

Conversations

I'm putting the convos here because I'm not sure if they actually take place, and what the conditions are for them. If someone would be so kind as to check them (in-game and/or CK), that would be awesome! They all are labelled to set in the Palace of the Kings:

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."

Ulfric: "It's working, Galmar. Our patience has won us friends and allies. And our armies are systematically taking care of the rest."
Galmar: "We need to move faster. Keep them off balance."
Ulfric: "We can't march on Solitude. Not yet. One thing at a time."
Galmar: "Our men are getting massacred out there. Damn Imperials."
Ulfric: "Calm yourself, Galmar. Save it for the battlefield."

If Dragon Rising is completed: (not sure about who speaks which line)

Galmar: "Do you think we could persuade one of the dragons to join our side?"
Ulfric: "I'm fairly sure that the dragons don't care about our matters one way or the other."
Galmar: "But just think of the advantage."
Ulfric: "I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful. But there are better uses of our resources right now."
Galmar: "I don't suppose we would ever really trust the thing anyway."

other convos:

Ulfric: "I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking."
Torsten: "A navy, my lord. We could stop the influx of Imperial troops to Solitude, and choke their northern lines."
Ulfric: "But most of their supply routes come south, from Cyrodiil."
Torsten: "But imagine -- fleets of ships sailing from Windhelm, all bearing the Stormcloak flag! It would be glorious!"
Ulfric: "And I suppose the Cruel-Seas would be just the clan to provide ships and men?"
Torsten: "You need but ask."
Ulfric: "I'll think on this, but I make no promises."
Torsten: "I can ask no more. Thank you, my lord!"

Ulfric: "Captain, I've been receiving complaints about this Giordano woman."
Lonely-Gale: "Yes, sir. I've been trying to quiet her, but she's insistent. She thinks she can find out who's been killing the women..."
Ulfric: "I don't care if she can find a living dwarf -- I can't have her stirring up trouble. We have enough problems as it is."
Lonely-Gale: "Yes, sir. I'll try to contain her."
Ulfric: "See that you do. I will not let Windhelm descend into chaos over a few overactive imaginations."

Ulfric: "What's the current spirit among the dark elves?"
Lonely-Gale: "As restless as ever, sir, but I don't see them taking any kind of incendiary action. Not soon, anyway."
Ulfric: "Well that much is good. Let's finish this first war before starting the next one, eh?"
Lonely-Gale: "Um... yes, of course, sir."
Ulfric: "Captain, I've been receiving complaints about this Giordano woman."
Lonely-Gale: "Carry on, Lonely-Gale. And loosen yourself a bit."

Ulfric: "Galmar thinks we should double our men in the Reach."
Jorleif: "A reasonable strategy."
Ulfric: "And you, Jorleif?"
Jorleif: "Well, sir, the hold of Falkreath is fairly vulnerable, and blocks the only road from Cyrodiil."
Ulfric: "A good point, old friend."
Jorleif: "To be sure, my lord, I am not skilled in the arts of war or military tactics."
Ulfric: "But you're able to see the whole in the parts, and for that I'm grateful."
Jorleif: "As you wish, sir."

Jorleif: "Sir, there continues to be unrest in the Gray Quarter."
Ulfric: "Blasted dark elves. I don't suppose you could tell them that I presently have larger concerns? Such as all of Skyrim?"
Jorleif: "They don't seem to be very sympathetic to our cause, sir."
Ulfric: "Let me know if you hear anything more substantial?"
Jorleif: "Of course, my lord."

Ulfric: "Jorleif, I want you to send a messenger to our western camps."
Jorleif: "And the message, sir?"
Ulfric: "I'm diverting Gar and Haddring's men to join him."
Jorleif: "Is that wise, sir?"
Ulfric: "It will work if we can pull Hran's men from the south. And find a bit of luck."
Jorleif: "Of course. Something that seems to be in short supply these days."
Ulfric: "I'm not seeking advice right now, friend. Just send the message."

—<({Quill-Tail>> 15:18, 24 March 2014 (GMT)

Mention of Arngeir

Does anyone else find it odd that Ulfric says Arngeir is "The oldest and most powerful" of the Greybeards, but when asking Arngeir why the others don't speak he says their voices are 'too powerful and that a whisper would kill one not trained in the Way of the Voice', I mean, would it not stand to reason then that Arngeir is in fact the weakest (and perhaps youngest) of the Greybeards? Otherwise why not say "they aren't as disciplined in the voice as I' or some such instead of something that seems to imply that he is just weaker and therefore the spokesman. 107.133.100.96 05:50, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Arngeir is not only the most powerful of the Greybeards, but he's also the most practiced. Perhaps greater experience with the Thu'um brings greater control and discipline. Arngeir can better control his Voice precisely because he's the most powerful; he is able to tame his power. Lyricon (talk) 06:46, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Do you have any source to back that up with? As I said before if that were so why not say "they aren't as disciplined in the voice as I' or some such instead of something that seems to imply that he is just weaker and therefore the spokesman? Indeed, the ground shakes when the others whisper, so I still feel like he is simply the weakest. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I would like more evidence before saying you are right. 107.133.100.96 07:08, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, Arngeir is level 150, while all of the other Greybeards are level 100, or, in Einarth's case, level 90. I don't know of any dialogue though. Lyricon (talk) 07:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Haha, not quite what I had in mind, but better than nothing. 107.133.100.96 08:54, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Racism

Is Ulfric REALLY racist?

He does say some degratory names to elves (and other races) while in combat, but that's mostly combat talk, and EVERYONE in Skyrim (from every race) uses that.

He Does seem not to care about the Argonians and the Dunmer in his city, but considering he's really a rather unexperienced Jarl (think about it, the guy has been a jarl for a few years, and most of that he was fighting a civil war) and occupied in leading a War, you could justify that with him being unexperienced. it's not that he doesn't care, he just can't take care of everything at once.

And, at least as far as I've read on this post (and with what my experience in the game has taught me), he never says anything racist. it's always Galmar who does, and Ulfric either changes the subject or just doesn't react to it. So, I'm asking everyone. Is Ulfric really racist, or is he just a victim of the status of his army? (Galmar is racist, I have no quarrel about that)188.158.5.17 19:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

No, Ulfric doesn't. I understand why you would ask the question since the wiki entry on Ulfric is framing speculation as fact due to Brunwulf Free-Winter's allegations without explicitly specifying that they are allegations, or pointing out that Brunwulf Free-Winter criticizes Ulfric over things that he himself does if he comes into power (from keeping the Argonians out of the city to not allocating any resources to improve the Grey Quarter). The fact that Brunwulf Free-Winter is in a relationship with a known bigot also calls into question the validity of such allegations. Lobsel Vith (talk) 11:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Please discuss all speculation in the forums. --Rezalon (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Dragonborn Reference

Does Ulfric always refer to the player as Dragonborn if attacking Solitude or Windhelm, even if "Dragon Rising" isn't complete? Would it deserve a note if he did? 98.214.70.29 18:31, 14 April 2020 (GMT)

There doesn't seem to be any alternative dialogue, so he would always use "Dragonborn". I believe the reason this is the case is because you can't complete either version of Message to Whiterun without completing Dragon Rising first. Forfeit (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Marrige?

Is he married to Galmar?--Cantbeonforums (talk) 12:02, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Assuming that this a serious question, the answer is no. Nothing in the game suggests a romantic relationship, and they are not marked as such in the game data.--Rook (talk) 14:24, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Btw, it was a serious question, so thank you--Cantbeonforums (talk) 11:51, 5 March 2021 (UTC)