User talk:Lobsel Vith

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Comparison between Ulfric and Brunwulf

Your comparison between Brunwulf's war-ravaged Windhelm administration and Ulfric's conscientious and intentional discriminatory behavior is massively flawed and illogical. The first thing to consider is that this is a game with finite resources to allocate. The next thing to consider is that time is stationary and that only quests and scripts affect changes. Taking both of these together we can see that there are no scripts to alter Windhelm after the Civil War, except to clean the streets of most of the rubble after a while, so effectively time has stopped just after the war and does not move forward like it does in real life. You also need to consider what the game can do to alter the situation. Does it throw the Nords into the slums and put the downtrodden into the rich houses, or create a multitude of new houses for them (given that this "city" only has 11 houses, one of which is the players, another is the Assemblage). Or does it save a massive amount of pointless scripting and through dialogue let you know that things are changing, using the very realistic excuse that having run a rebellion Ulfric drained the cities resources, so there is no money to build new houses or improve the slums. All of this must also be taken into consideration as well the fact that there are no significant changes made anywhere else that make this an exception (and therefore validate your claim), but neither is that fact held against anyone else who claims to be changing things for exactly the same reasons given above. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:59, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

The problem is, with the first part of your statement, you're using game mechanics to explain why Brunwulf is running things exactly how Ulfric is. Strictly speaking, he admits he has no intentions to let the Argonians into the city. Furthermore, he says he's focusing on other matters besides restoring the Gray Quarter - which is exactly what Ulfric says to his steward when he explains why he isn't fixing up the Gray Quarter. In short, he's running things precisely how Ulfric was. Pointing to game mechanics doesn't really change that. People say they're optimistic because he's making promises, but the truth of the matter is he's not actually changing anything. If he's not actually changing anything, it's not really a different type of regime. In addition, he's also romantically involved with a bigot, so I'd call into question the validity of his support for other races since, for all his condemnation of Ulfric, he's involved with someone who explicitly dislikes non-Nords. Lobsel Vith (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

When replying to a comment it is extremely useful to reply on the same page. The time is the most important aspect here, because except for the rubble the city is basically stuck 1 day after the Civil War ends. How much do you expect can be accomplished in less than 1 day after a new government takes over from an old one. By all the evidence we have is hardly anything he will not be running things exactly as Ulfric did. Ulfric was in charge of Windhelm for years and discriminated, even during his rebellion he neglected a source of soldiers because of his views. He reason for not restoring the Grey quarter is because of his rebellion. How you can equate that to Brunwulf's inability through lack of resources to restoring the quarter is quite frankly beyond me, because the only way to do it is to deny the possibility that a rebellion spanning an entire province run by the previous Jarl cost anything. Lets equate this to the dig site in Dragonborn. You can be at the site with the diggers on doing there job and stand there for hours and nothing changes. In 10 seconds you could be in Raven Rock, get his message, run back around to the site and the whole section is cleared, does this sound realistic? No, this is called a game limitation. Lack of visible change is not evidence of no change, and neither does it have to be visual to be real. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 23:29, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

It's standard for numerous wiki pages to respond to the other person's page, like on the Dragon Age Wiki. Aside from the fact that it's made clear that the Dunmer willingly chose not to join the Stormcloaks (ergo, it's open to non-Nords), if Brunwulf says he isn't going to let Argonians into the city, it's not a matter of time. If Ulfric says he isn't putting resources into the Gray Quarter because he's allocating them elsewhere because of the rebellion, and Brunwulf also says he's not allocating resources into the Gray Quarter because he's putting them elsewhere, I'm seeing two men who are giving similar excuses. If Brunwulf has no problem being romantically involved with a bigoted woman, then I have to wonder why he puts on such a front given how he's willing to spend his life with someone who denigrates non-Nords. More and more, Brunwulf comes across as someone who is disingenuous. He criticizes Ulfric, but he ends up running things almost exactly the same way. Lobsel Vith (talk) 23:47, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

If you can't accept that nothing in government changes in 1 day then there is no hope of you accepting that rebuilding an entire section of a city can't be done in one day, and nor it is not because Brunwulf chooses not to, it is because there are no resources, not because he is reallocating them elsewhere. You may not accept it but the lack of action is purely down to Bethesda, not Brunwulf. They did not create any scripts to alter the city afterwards (again excepting the rubble). The Dunmer "choosing" not to join an organisation that clearly doesn't want them with it's "Skyrim for the Nords" unofficial motto is not surprising, nor can it be used to pretend that the Stormcloaks are non-discriminatory. Brunwulf would not be the first person to love someone who held views that they were opposed to, nor can Elda's views be held as evidence that Brunwulf also holds and acts on those views. It is true that he acts on the discriminatory views of Windhelm in keeping the Argonians out of the city, but you have to be extremely cynical (and ignore the contrary evidence) to assume that that is both a lie and that the real reason is because he is racist to be able to say that he and Ulfric and no different from one another. Unless you can come up with some actual evidence to support an argument this conversation is over, as a lack of evidence against your claims is not evidence that they are right (especially given the weight of evidence that opposes your arguments). Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:07, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

"Skyrim for the Nords" is literally dialogue that's said by Nords regardless of their affiliation; Lydia, for example, also says this line, as do many Nords, even those who aren't with the Stormcloaks. As for Brunwulf's relationship with a bigot, I think it is important because, for all his allegations about Ulfric, he's actually involved with a woman who is explicitly bigoted against non-Nords. Also, it's not a matter of rebuilding a sector in a day, it's a matter of Brunwulf criticizing Ulfric over the Argonians and the Dunmer, but then operating in the same fashion as him when he actually becomes Jarl. If all you can do is say it's a matter of game mechanics, when Brunwulf explicitly says that he isn't going to let Argonians into the city and says he's focusing on other issues that prevent him from fixing the Gray Quarter, then there's really no difference between his rule and Ulfric's; to claim that he's more tolerant, when he's not actually doing anything different, makes your edit disingenuous. Lobsel Vith (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

(←) Gentlemen, please remember to keep this civil. If you feel that you can't reach consensus on your own, I'd suggest moving this discussion to a more public forum (in order to let our community of editors weigh in), or to the talk pages of the individual characters' pages.
gelza1^{Talk Cont} 07:10, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

You're right. I think moving this discussion to a more public forum would be for the best. Lobsel Vith (talk) 13:32, 19 June 2017 (UTC)