Lore talk:Way of the Voice

Cleanup for Skyrim.

I added a section including what I know, but I may be missing something. Also, I doubt it conforms to "high standards," so I'm not removing the sign either. But at least it's a start, right? Also, I'd like to handle the cleanup of this page, so please leave it to me :) Apollo Quinn 01:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but please remember to add references. That's the most important part of this. See Help:References for information on how to do it. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:35, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

This article by the Game Informer may be helpful. It details some lore of the shouts (of course mixed in with all of the new Skyrim info it talks about.). But at least it gives you a source for some info. :)--216.81.21.131 08:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Please be very wary about adding information to Lore pages based on external sources. To be honest, I'd prefer that specific details weren't added at all before the release of the game. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I think information from GI would be alright, as everything they have is taken directly from interviews with Todd Howard and other design managers working on Skyrim. However I do agree, if this article is developed further before the release of Skyrim there will have to be some major reworking done to have it fit and be accurate.--216.81.21.131 09:00, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a bad idea to add information that we know is going to have to be rewritten. That's why everything goes on the Skyrim page so at least it's all in one place. Spreading hypothetical information around the site is going to cause problems later on. Yes, the GI stuff comes from Bethesda but remember that at this stage in the Oblivion development cycle, NPCs would do things like drink Fortify Marksman potions if they were practicing their archery skills and kept missing the target. This behavior never made it into the final game. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll keep it minimal, so when Skyrim comes out, it can be easily edited to include concrete facts. That ok? Apollo Quinn 15:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd rather it stuck to what's known from other material, like the PGE, but a brief note is okay, I suppose. rpeh •T•C•E• 15:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I can elaborate any further without stepping outside the boundaries I've been set. Will this do? Apollo Quinn 22:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

There aren't any references. That's the most important thing. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Improper redirects

Not sure where to bring this up. Here seems as good as any.

Most of this page is built around treating the Way of the Voice as synonymous with Tongues. They are not the same thing. Tongues are people who can use the thu'um. Ulfric Stormcloak, Tiber Septim, the Dovahkiin, Wulfgar, they're all Tongues. But the Way of the Voice, on the other hand, is a distinct philosophy practiced by the Greybeards, a group of Tongues which is dedicated to the non-aggressive use of, and the meditative study of, the thu'um.

"Thu'um" and "Tongues" redirect to this page, and I think it's helping to give people the wrong idea about what these terms all mean, since the Way of the Voice is just one way to practice the use of the thu'um. Minor Edits 02:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree on this statement. I recopilated the dialogues with Arngeir on High Hrothgar in adition with some other sources from TeSV about The Way of the Voice used 'for the worship and glory of the gods'. I was thinking to add that to this article splitting it on two parts: one dedicated to The Way of the Voice used as a weapon (Ancient Nords-Tongues), and another one about The Way of the Voice used as a tool to regain balance and spiritual harmony (Jurgen Windcaller-Greybeards). Can you share your thoughts? — Unsigned comment by Araglad (talk • contribs) at 14:49 on 30 May 2012

(←) That's essentially the heart of my complaint: the Way of the Voice has always been pacifistic, it was never used as a weapon, yet this page and possible some others continue perpetuating that understanding. I strongly believe that even if that's what the makers intended to be true at one point (which is itself doubtful), it has since been impliedly retconned.

Therefore, I think the thu'um redirect should be converted into a proper article about the general use of the thu'um, while this page elaborates on the philosophy discovered by Jurgen Wind-Caller known as "the Way of the Voice". He didn't turn the Way of the Voice to pacifism, he instigated the philosophical movement which became known as the Way of the Voice. He successfully pacified the use of the Voice throughout Nordic culture as a whole by preaching the Way of the Voice, making it taboo for any honorable Nord to use the Voice outside of times of "True Need". Modern Nords may or may not consider only the Greybeards as true practitioners in the Way of the Voice, but I'm fairly certain all the "good" ones are still influenced by its precepts and abide by the "no Voice in wars for conquest" rule.

The ancient Nords who used the thu'um for violence and conquest could be mentioned on the thu'um page, but they did not practice or know of the Way of the Voice until Jurgen Wind-Caller, as it did not exist yet. I don't think any source has stated this outright, but that is the best understanding I have mustered from all the recent relevant sources, which we can scrutinize one by one if anyone disagrees with me.

I can only find one source that suggests that "the Way of the Voice" was ever militaristic: The Pocket Guide, First Edition. PGE1 is not only ancient, but has been contradicted and discredited on numerous occasions. In-game, they impliedly contribute these discrepancies to the ignorance and misunderstandings of its Imperial authors. It's a terrible source to rely on, so I think the article should essentially presume that it's uncorroborated understanding of the Way of the Voice (specifically, that Tiber Septim wanted the Way of the Voice to "return" to the art of warfare, thereby implying that the Way of the Voice was once militaristic) is likely flawed and thus not place great weight on it. All the article needs to do, more or less, is mention at some point that one old source written by a glorified tourist construed the Way of the Voice to be the general use of the Voice. It's a philosophy that has greatly influenced the use of the thu'um, not the use of the thu'um itself. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 01:36, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

As Arngeir is the second in command his words carry weight. Here is a link that shows most of his dialogue, and he agrees with you, "He was the first to understand that the Voice should be used solely for the glory and worship of the gods, not the glory of men. Jurgen Windcaller's mastery of the Voice eventually overcame all opposition, and the Way of the Voice was born.". The Silencer speaks^Talk 01:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

There is another source in-game for the Voice used as a weapon: The 6th emblem on the climbing to High Hrothgar says "With roaring Tongues, the Sky-Children conquer / Founding the First Empire with Sword and Voice / Whilst the Dragons withdrew from this World". Also, i think i read on a dialogue somewhere about the men 'warring using the Voice', but i cannot remember when and where. Araglad 07:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

You're screwing with me, right? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 19:52, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The tablets are actually the story of the Thu'um. All ten are here, and they support Arngeir. The Silencer speaks^Talk 20:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Nord "Taboo" on using Th'aum

This apparently needs more space than the edit reason box: Can anyone point at any reference where it explicitly says that the use of Th'aum in modern times is considered taboo in Nord culture at large? It is definitely taboo in the Way, that is not up for debate. But in the game, the reaction of most Nord NPCs to dragon shouts is much closer to confusion than anything else: Ulfric's feat of shouting down Toryigg is met with disbelief and skepticisim, the city guards when they reprimand you for shouting inside a city seem unsure of what to call it ("That....shouting"), and not all the Whiterun guards you first demonstrate to are aware of the lore. Meanwhile, Ulfric has been said to use the Voice (presumably Unrelenting Force from the in-game descriptions of events) both to fight Toryigg and to retake Markarth from the Foresworn, and he definitely considers himself a True Nord. It is certainly fair to say that the Greybeards appear to dominate the dissemination and training of the Th'aum, and with it their philosophy of using it, but Nord culture at large is one that glorifies warfare and honor in combat, and the Tongues of old are certainly not held in disdain. 68.98.111.205 09:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

You're right, it couldn't really be explained in an edit summary. Sorry if I ramble here, but it's late for me. There is nothing I'm aware of that explicitly says the use of the thu'um absent True Need is considered taboo in modern Nordic culture, but it's nonetheless the only logical conclusion given all the information we have available. Common sense dictates that the taboo brought on by the Way is reflected in Nordic culture in general. First off, the understanding given by TES gameplay and lore is that most if not all Nords have some ability to use the thu'um, which is an important premise. Every Nord player in the games can give a inarticulate shout in the form of the power "Battle Cry", and Children of the Sky also gives the impression that virtually every Nord is imbued with the ability to use the thu'um. While only those Nords who have a particular talent and who have trained in its use can become Tongues, virtually every Nord is technically a thu'um wielder. So the fact that the use of the thu'um is stagnant in modern times and that the extreme majority of Nords are not educated in its ways speaks to the ongoing disinclination to utilize it despite the lucrative returns it would bring if it was used in offensive warfare again.

I don't recall any source which claims that Ulfric used the thu'um as a tool of conquest in his campaign against the Forsworn. But considering Ulfric's abilities, it stands to reason that there are more Nords out there who are similar to Ulfric: they have some knowledge on the use of the thu'um, but they don't live the monastic life of the Greybeards. And yet, despite the fact that there was a civil war raging, dragons invading, and the world in general was going to hell, we didn't exactly see a lot of people running around using it (not counting the many, many draugr who will utilize it against a player).

The focus upon Ulfric's use of the thu'um when he attacked Torygg should speak volumes about how significant the act was for the populace. Any given expression of skepticism or confusion by people surrounding the use of the thu'um in the game could be construed in a wide variety of ways. The ancient Tongues are not held in disdain, but neither are they imitated by modern Nords.

The Greybeards are certainly the most important and like only real source of education in the use of the thu'um, meaning their influence over how it is used is enormous. For thousands of years, any soul could ascend the Throat of the World to learn from them, and any student who left High Hrothgar retained and carried out all their warnings and instructions into the world, and we have no knowledge of any of them, besides Ulfric, who did not abide by the Greybeard's teachings.

To use a real-world analogy, imagine a school for economics emerged in the world and replaced another school entirely. It existed for thousands of years without noteworthy dissent or competition, during which it and all of its faculty insisted that Keynesian economics, as promoted by the previous school, was not viable. The vast majority of the students who passed through this school would adopt that understanding and take that understanding with them into the world. People who were not economists wouldn't really think about it much, but Keynesian economics would essentially be taboo in their society, as anyone who could implement policies based on Keynesian economics would never seriously consider doing such a thing. The average person could look back with respect at leaders who utilized Keynesian economics in the past, but not with the intent of imitating them, as what little knowledge of economics they had would include the well-ingrained principle that Keynesian practices were aborted for good reasons, even if the individual doesn't know of or comprehend them.

The use of magic in combat is frowned-upon in general Nordic culture, and using the thu'um is just another form of magic. Ancient Nords had no such qualms about magic use (I believe Tsun says as much during the main quest). I imagine that there was some correlation between the abandonment of the use of the thu'um and the use of other magic in general warfare, but that's just chicken-and-egg speculation. The point is, the disinclination to use the thu'um absent True Need is clearly reflected in Nordic culture. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 10:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

At some point I might get around to attempting an in-depth rebuttal, but in case I don't, here's the short version: I'm not really established as an editor on here, but the point of the lore pages as far as I understand it is to stick as much as possible to what can be got explicitly be cited from in-game materials. Trying to draw too much conjecture from things not explicitly stated is walking a fine line, and I think the idea of a culture-wide taboo crosses it.

The Greybeards may have the monopoly on the teaching of the Th'aum and they may be revered, but they are extremely selective (many ascend the mountain, few are let in the gate, the in-game dialog establishes that) and isolated and detached from the everyday goings on of life in Skyrim. The College of Winterhold arguably has more direct influence on affairs than they do. The only people that they can unquestionably be said to influence is the people that train with them directly. 68.98.111.205 07:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, also, both Ulfric's article and the Foresworn's article say he used the Th'aum in the battle at Markarth, but looking again, both lack a direct citation for that info. If I find one, I'll point it out.

Better? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 07:38, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, judging by the edit which added the bit to Ulfric's page about his use of the thu'um during the Reach campaign, the source is apparently Jarl Igmund. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 07:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow not good to read with a migraine especially the economics talk lol but anyways... it was actually Thongvor Silver-Blood who said Ulfric used the thu'um during 'the Markarth Incident' (haven't heard Jarl Ingmund say it but he may have). Here is what is said.

Dragonborn: Ulfric saved Markarth? How?
Thongvor: He used the thu'um. Shouted those Forsworn from the walls. Then he lead a band of Nord warriors in to take the city.
Just like Talos himself at Old Hroldan, reclaiming the Reach from those heathen natives.

Ulfric was studying to be a Greybeard when war broke out instead of sitting on the Throat of the World he went to fight (if I remember right both Ulfric and Arngeir say that). O and yes it was Unrelenting Force he used (the jerk used it on me when I was trying to end the war by killing him lol). But anyways the edit is better Minor Edits before it was a bit hard to read (at least for me :S ) --SPMcKinney 02:25, 6 July 2012 (UTC)