Skyrim talk:Enchanting Effects/Archive 2

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Enchanting Effects discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Ping-pong still an in-game sport

I think we're all aware in 1.3 they patched the iterative cycle of fortify restoration boosting itself; however, they did it incorrect-- I noted this on the enchantment talk page(*) But the what still works in 1.3 is enchanting with fortify alchemy -> using a restoration potion to boost the enchanted gear -> creating another fortify restoration + fortify alchemy potion. Using this cycle I can still create a +218% to alchemy enchant on each of 4 allowed pieces of gear. I have not reached a limit yet but I also haven't spent the required time to test it; which has increased significantly from simply spamming an loop of restoration potions. If the boundary exists it is set very high. Has anybody reached a predefined bound that Bethesda installed in the patch or does it still not exist?

Before anybody complains that exploiting is wrong and shouldn't be discussed I propose the follow question: if Bethesda didn't want you to use one effect to enhance the other why make it possible to apply a fortify alchemy effect to the creation of a fortify enchantment potion or visa-versa why make it possibly to use the effect of fortify enchantment when applying a fortify alchemy enchantment. These are very easy fixes-- simply exclude potion or enchantment effects respectively during calculation and its done.

• Note: the "fix" is still broken if you decide to exploit it since it can still go negative and actually impact the magnitude if you take the fortify restoration potions in succession. The issue was the original potions never stacked. What happened was the effect was applied to the magnitude calculation of the potion before it was consumed. That value then replaced the existing value resulting in what appeared to be stacking. If it actually stacked you would see multiple entries in the active effects list. What Bethesda should have done is apply the effect post substitution so the calculation on the effect would occur after the original effect was removed and during the insertion of the new effect. 75.80.97.155 04:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

- Just to comment, Bethesda likely left the exploit in (and others like it, i.e. bucket head thievery) because this is a single-player game. The only person's fun you're ruining is your own, and if you've done everything else in the game, this can even be its own source of fun. So what's the harm? I don't see any reason for moralizing, much less saying what Bethesda should or shouldn't have done to fix it. I'd rather they spend their time addressing quest-breaking bugs... — Unsigned comment by 96.60.118.196 (talk) at 21:17 on 11 January 2012

Interesting post -thanks -just one comment: you said the cycle of creating stronger "fortify restoration + fortify alchemy" potions was still exploitable - I think you meant to say fortify "enchanting" potions, because there are no "fortify alchemy" potions, right?. --A Caveman 01:19, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

"Base Cost" of enchantments

With no perks (other than maxing Enchanter as much as possible: 3/5 atm) a (Petty) Fear sword is worth 328 gold and a Turn Undead one is worth 576. The Base Cost for Turn Undead is 0.7, and for Fear it's 4.1. Similarly, it's 9 for Banish and 40 for Absorb Health, but Banish weapons are worth far more. Nephele would know for sure, but I guess that means "Base Cost" actually refers to charge use rather than gold value. Aliana 09:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

If the formula shares any similarity with the one used for the values of the generic magic weapons (see this talk post) then Absorb Health is going to be worth less relative to the base cost compared to Banish because Absorb Health is an effect with a short duration of 1, whereas Banish has magnitude but no duration. Also, are you sure you got the value of Fear right? I'm seeing it as 0.4. Fear and Turn Undead seems like it would be a place to start since the two Enchantments are the same in magnitude and duration, though formulas involving durations may be more complex. It may be simpler to start with Banish/Fire/Frost/Damage Magicka/Damage Stamina, as those effects are magnitude only. Arcanist 07:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure about it at all: I just got it from SR:Fear where it's listed as 4.1 for Enchanting. Aliana 21:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Weird, either I'm looking at the wrong part of the data files, or the cost on that page is a typo. Which raises another question: Why is that cost info only on the Effect pages? Seems like it should end up on this page at some point, though maybe it can wait until after we figure out what the formulas are for enchanted item costs. I've been trying to figure out the formulas for weapons, and so far all I can determine is:

           finalValue = valueOfBaseWeapon + 0.12*SoulGemCapacity + 8*enchantmentValueFormula

SoulGemCapacity is a number ranging from 250 for Petty souls, to 3000 for Grand/Black souls. The number 8 is a constant defined in the game settings, and I have tested changing it and watched enchantment prices change accordingly. The real mystery is what I have labeled enchantmentValueFormula. This is a complicated function of unknown configuration which I have yet to figure out. It trends downward in a curve as Enchanting Skill increases, reaching 0 when Skill is 200. It trends upward as Base Magnitude, or Effect Cost increase (and presumably also trends upward as Duration increases, but I haven't tested that yet.) It does not appear to depend on the actual final Magnitude as no perk I tested (Enchanter, Fire Enchanter, Augmented Flames) affected the value at all. It does trend downwards as Magnitude/Maximum Magnitude decreases though. Arcanist 07:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

double, double effect

So I was wondering, I disenchanted my Robe of destruction wich decreases spell cost and renerates magicka. It is displayed as ONE emchantment. Does this mean I can use another enchantment allike, say feather weight and increase magicka (If such a item can be found)? — Unsigned comment by 84.26.160.57 (talk) at 04:13 on 8 February 2012

such enchantments come with caveats, such as the magnitude of each of the two effects is less than they would be if applied alone. However, the answer to the question is Yes, if such an item existed, you could disenchant it for dual affect , or if you have the double enchant perk, you could apply two of these dual-effect enchantments. However the magic robes are the only times where this is true. ----A Caveman 15:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Costs from Creation Kit

Weapon Effect		School	Base Magnitude	Base Cost	Base Uses
Absorb	Health	Destruction	8		22.6
	Magicka	Destruction	15		35.1
	Stamina	Destruction	10		33.4
Damage	Briarheart Geis	Destruction	+5 damage vs. Nords	0	Infinite
	Fire	Destruction	10	0.9	69.2
	Frost	Destruction	10 50% slow for 2s	1.1	55.5
	Huntsman's Prowess	Destruction	+3 damage vs. Animals	1	265
	Magicka	Destruction	15	0.8	48.3
	Shock	Destruction	10		54.9
	Silent Moons Enchant	Destruction	+10 damage under moonlight		170
	Stamina	Destruction	15	1.5	24.2
Repel	Banish	Conjuration	Level 10		5.50
	Fear	Illusion	Level 10	0.4	44.7
	Turn Undead	Restoration	Level 10	0.7	24.2
Apply Effect	Paralyze	Alteration	2s		20.6
	Soul Trap	Conjuration	4s		87.9
Special	Fiery Soul Trap	Conjuration	5s 10 fire damage	25	61.8
	Smithing Expertise	Destruction	5 shock damage +5 Smithing	2	66.5

There seems to be an inverse relationship with the number of uses, but it's not exact. Perhaps there is some other factor?

--Evil4Zerggin 01:40, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Well the value you have listed as "Charge", also shown as "Ench Amount" in the Creation Kit, when auto-calculated, are determined based on the Base Cost of the Enchantment's associated Magic Effects and the Magnitude and Duration assigned to those effects. I have determined this relationship follows the formula floor(BaseCost*(Magnitude * Duration/10)^1.1) for each Effect of the Enchantment. Values of 0 for the Magnitude and Duration/10 terms are treated as 1 instead. Note that the value displayed by the Creation Kit is floored, the game may or may not use the non-rounded values in its calculations. If an Enchantment has multiple effects, use the formula for each effect separately then sum the results.

The Base Uses characteristic listed on the main page appears to be a derived characteristic based once again on Base Cost, Magnitude, and Duration. I have not been able to determine the exact relationships there, though clearly it goes down as you apply 'more powerful' effects – more Magnitude, more Duration, higher Base Cost. Arcanist 06:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the analysis. I've added the base cost information to the table above. --Evil4Zerggin 17:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Resist Soul Trap on enchanted weapons?

I tried looking under soul trap spell, the enchanting page and a bunch of other pages but I can't seem to find anything that explains what I'm experiencing. I have adequate sized soul gems and several different weapons enchanted with soul trap (a bow, 2 daggers, 2 swords, and a mace for good measure) but many times when I use any of those items, except the bow, I get the message after the enemy dies that it "resisted soul trap". It first happened on a sabre cat and I thought maybe it was because I used a petty soul gem to enchant the weapon, but it's happened several times since on various creatures such as a ice wolf, a bear and several slaughterfish. I went back and enchanted two new daggers with grand soul gems but they are experiencing the same thing. The only weapons that never give me that message are my bound sword and bow and my enchanted bow. Maybe these creatures have a magicka resistance I'm not aware of? Any thoughts? kolokoL 20:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, now I feel stupid. It is actually collecting the souls even though it says the enemy resisted it. So it seems it's a faulty message, not a faulty weapon kolokoL 20:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

If you're hitting things multiple times with your Soul-Trap-enchanted weapons, the messages may be the result of trying to apply multiple Soul Trap effects whose durations were still active. Each soul can only be trapped once, so it might be generating resist messages for any effects beyond the first. Bound weapons would probably be unaffected since I believe the perk only does the trapping on the killing blow. Why your enchanted bow doesn't do it, I would have to guess you either kill in one hit or the time between hits with it is long enough for the last Soul Trap to have worn off. I haven't tested any of this though, just my best guess from your info. Arcanist 01:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

You can apply soul trap to an enemy as many times as you want while previous soul traps are still in effect. The resist soul trap notification you're getting is the result of you striking the enemy after they've already been killed. But don't worry, as you noticed the soul trap worked. You're probably just throwing in a few extra swings of your blade at the end of a fight, and you can't soul trap a corpse. But because of the slow fire rate of bows you probably aren't shooting extra arrows at an enemy once they've dropped to the ground, explaining why you haven't gotten the message when using your bow. — Unsigned comment by 24.186.193.115 (talk) on 16 February 2012

Prev: Archive 1

Up: Skyrim talk:Enchanting Effects

Next: Archive 3