Skyrim talk:Elder Scrolls Historical References/Dragonborn Archive

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Altar of Thrond & Moesring Pass

• Three Hagravens in the Altar of Thrond: Isobel, Ettiene and Fallaise appeared as witches in Bloodmoon.
• The Strange vessel at Moesring Pass could be the Patchwork Airship from Bloodmoon.

--Jimeee (talk) 19:02, 8 December 2012 (GMT)

References to the gameplay and world of past Elder Scrolls games belong on the Historical References page. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 19:27, 8 December 2012 (GMT)

Morrowind Scroll of Icarian Flight Easter Egg

While wandering Solstheim, you may encounter a mad mage who casts a spell that launches him far into the sky. In Morrowind, you may encounter a Wood Elf falling out of the sky with a few Scrolls of Icarian flight on his person. These scrolls have the same effect as the spell that is used by the mage in the random encounter.— Unsigned comment by ‎96.246.140.79 (talk)

If this is real, I would agree that it is an egg--][Respect the wind][ (talk) 22:04, 8 December 2012 (GMT)

No it's not. This would be a historical reference, not an easter egg. Admittedly, it is a historical reference to an easter egg, but a historical reference none the less. Jeancey (talk) 22:07, 8 December 2012 (GMT)

Are one-off Easter eggs considered canonical history? 64.138.235.149 23:00, 12 December 2012 (GMT)

What do you mean? Jeancey (talk) 23:14, 12 December 2012 (GMT)

It's the real-world history of the games, not necessarily the in-game lore we're talking about, so yes, it counts, but yeah, it's not an easter egg itself so much as a reference to an older one - almost a running gag as it were? Although I think you need more than 2 occurrences to call it that, e.g. M'aiq the Liar might qualify. TheRealLurlock (talk) 01:38, 14 December 2012 (GMT)

It's a reference to Morrowind, and references to other games is about why these pages exist anyway. Besides, why can't this thing be considered both an Easter Egg and a Historical Reference? LoveWaffle (talk) 22:31, 14 December 2012 (GMT)

Kolbjorn Barrow Revisited

Sup dudes. I lika pointa outta that Kolbjorn Barrow was also a barrow you could go to in Bloodmoon. -Jet- (talk) 06:59, 9 December 2012 (GMT)

We are revisiting a location previously shown in a game. There's definitely going to be overlap, and it would be pointless to list every common place between the two as references. Eric Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 07:42, 9 December 2012 (GMT)

Actually this should be in here. The first part of the excavation, you will find a skull which weighs 2 and has a value of 40. It appears to made of ruby or a red gem of some kind and is ornately carved. I think this is a reference to the Oddfreid Whitelips quest from bloodmoon where you would find a skull on the table in Kolbjorn Barrow. The maps are also highly similar, with the skull being in the second chamber. When the skull is first moved, it will open the door and progress the quest to the second excavation. Romandoug (talk) 06:19, 28 December 2012 (GMT)

Dusty

I don't know if this fits on here, but just north-west of the Tel Mithryn settlement there is a silt strider, obviously a link back to the Morrowind game. She's kept by a guy called Revus Savani who raised her from a lavae and is looking after her until she "passes peacefully". She can't be ridden anywhere though. Shall I put it on the main page? AyaHawkeye (talk) 14:40, 10 December 2012 (GMT)

Ebony/Umbra

Does anyone else find the Ebony Warrior quest a call-back to Umbra from Morrowind and Oblivion? Like Morrowind's Umbra, the quest involves giving a powerful, unnamed warrior a warrior's death, and, like Oblivion's Umbra, the character is fully clad in high-end Ebony armor. Or am I just making too much of this? LoveWaffle (talk) 22:05, 10 December 2012 (GMT)

Stormfang

The weapon which the Reaver Lord carries at Brodir Grove shares it's name with the blade carried by Ulfgar the Unending at Brodir Grove in Bloodmoon and is possibly meant to be the same sword. — Unsigned comment by 94.5.44.154 (talk) at 06:50 on 11 December 2012

Not a historical reference. It is the same sword. Jeancey (talk) 13:29, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

Ebony Warrior Similar to Gaenor from Tribunal

In Tribunal a wood-elf named Gaenor wore a full set of ebony armor, had highly powerful enchantments, and was one of the most difficult enemies in Morrowind or its expansions. This is similar to The Ebony Warrior in Dragonborn. — Unsigned comment by 72.54.166.181 (talk) at 19:59 on 13 December 2012‎

I'd say so. DRAGON GUARD^(TALK) 18:58, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Nerevarine save me

Some NPCs when in combat will say "Nerevarine save me" this is a reference to the Dunmer deity, the main protagonist in Morrowind is the re-incarnation of this deity. This line is also spoken by any Dunmer in Skyrim, so it's hardly a Dragonborn reference. --DaedalusMachina (talk) 18:03, 15 December 2012 (GMT)

What game it's in aside, I support its removal. Nerevar and and Nerevarine are, like it says above, practically deities to the Dunmer, and for them to ask for Nerevar's blessing is really no different than the Nords asking Talos to guide them or for any other race to ask for their gods to watch them. If something more directly related to the Nerevarine than requesting a blessing happened, then the Nerevarine would be interesting, IMO, but as is... He's just a deity being named, if I am making sense? Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 18:16, 15 December 2012 (GMT)

Hrothmund's Barrow/Hrothmund's Axe

Hrothmund's Barrow and Hrothmund's Axe are both featured in Bloodmoon and Dragonborn. The Barrow and Axe are also part of a Thirsk quest in both BM and DB. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be an obvious historical reference. — Unsigned comment by 98.142.47.67 (talk) at 07:07 on 16 December 2012

They both are in each game, but when you're revisiting a location, locations are bound to be repeated, so I don't know that mentioning that a barrow is in both games is worth mentioning. Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 07:21, 16 December 2012 (GMT)

Actually, this seems like a pretty direct reference to me, having played both games. I don't see why it was dismissed so quickly. — ABCface^◥ 07:41, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

I have played Bloodmoon too. Big fan of GotY Morrowind, and now that you've pulled this up to the RC, and I am glancing at it again, I probably ought to be more clear. The barrow itself is irrelevant. If you can detail what the Dragonborn quest is about, ABCface, so that I know what I am comparing to, I might be inclined to agree as well, based on how similar the quests are. Of course, for me, that's what will make me agree on it is how similar the quests are. If the only comparison is the location is revisited in the quest, then my opposition will stand. --Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 07:50, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

Found them. Looking at the quest descriptions (reclaiming the mead hall after it was assaulted by other creatures), I can see the comparison. Good enough for me. --Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 07:58, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

Thanks for the links, I couldn't remember the name of the quest in Bloodmoon and didn't have time to look for it last night. Anyway, Bujold in Dragonborn goes to the barrow to receive Hrothmund's blessing as the leader of the group of Nords at Thirsk Mead Hall, by putting her hands on the axe. She's considered unworthy so she's no longer leader, but it's still close enough to the player going to activate the axe to receive a blessing from Hrothmund in Bloodmoon. — ABCface^◥ 18:20, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

Repeat Locations

Since there are a number of locations shared between this and Bloodmoon, I think there should just be one list on this page, separate from the other sections, that details the locations that reappear in this DLC. LoveWaffle (talk) 12:46, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

Since we are revisiting an area, there are quite a few similarities. It isn't really considered a historical reference though, any more than a daedric artifact that appears in more than one game is a historical reference. They aren't detailed here. Each location that appears in bloodmoon as well as dragonborn should already have that fact listed, along with a link to the bloodmoon page, on the dragonborn page. There shouldn't be a list here at all. Jeancey (talk) 13:28, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

Except that, unlike Daedric artifacts, these locations have changed in the 200+ years since Bloodmoon. The Mehrunes Razor that appeared in Skyrim is, except for stats, the same as the one that appeared in Morrowind, but the Fort Frostmoth and Raven Rock here are entirely different places from the Fort Frostmoth and Raven Rock in Bloodmoon. LoveWaffle (talk) 13:51, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

If we started listing all of the places that appear in both Dragonborn and Bloodmoon, for the sake of consistency we would also have to list, in separate sections, all of the places that appeared in both Arena and Morrowind, Arena and Oblivion, and Arena and Skyrim, on the respective historical references pages. That could get really messy, really fast. Kitkat ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 14:22, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

Actually, I've already done that. Sandboxed it before doing anything too pretentious. Only problem with listing all the locations that appear in any game after Arena is that it results in a bunch of redlinks, primarily due to the (understandably) small amount of attention Arena gets. Otherwise, not that difficult. Arena was randomly generated, so there's no locations to revisit outside a small handful of cities and dungeons. Dragonborn, being the first time we're revisiting an area that wasn't previously randomly generated, would require more of an undertaking, but consistency is not something to worry about. LoveWaffle (talk) 18:17, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

A reference is not a reappearance. Is it a reference to Oblivion that the Imperial City can be seen from atop the mountains in southern Skyrim? No it is there because it can be seen from those same mountains in Oblivion, so it would be careless to omit it from the scenery. A reference is something that would not be expected to make a reappearance. In Online, the same cities in all the "previous" games will be around, but they will not be references, not only due to the fact that it is in the past, but because cities don't disappear. Ruins and caves do not usually disappear in TES, unlike IRL, but they would still be expected to return, because there have been no reports of there disappearance. A book or note about why a cave that appeared in one and not the other game, would be a reference, because those unfamiliar with Bloodmoon, would not know about such a cave. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:53, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

Actually, the Imperial Palace's appearance in the horizon is currently listed on Skyrim's page for historical references, as well as Red Mountain and the island of Vvardenfell under the Morrowind section. Furthermore, I don't understand why something has to be "unexpected" in order to qualify for this page. A reference is a reference, regardless of if it was expected or not. LoveWaffle (talk) 19:22, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

And, upon further investigation, those two references were added to the historical references page from the easter egg page in November 2011 by Rpeh, and the page has since been edited by various administrators/moderaters/etc. who, in not deleting the most apparent entries on the page, have given their inclusion their approval. So you cannot say their inclusion on that page is in error. (Source)

Furthermore, considering how many locations do not return for this expansion, I find it hard to say that any location could be expected to return, particularly Raven Rock, which, as we heard in Oblivion, was abandoned. LoveWaffle (talk) 19:41, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

(←) I agree with LoveWaffle on this one. This DLC is significant in that it's the first time we've explored a location that was already visited in-depth. A lot has changed in the 200 years that have passed, and at the very least we should document these. Silencer, in response to your concern that cities don't disappear, this isn't just about cities. Compare the list of places on Solstheim in Bloodmoon and Dragonborn. Dungeons do in fact disappear - just looking at the caves, it's evident that many have disappeared. Fort Frostmoth is a shell of what it once was. Thirsk has been taken over by Rieklings, as has Castle Karstaag. However, there are other things that are still here. The Skaal Village remains largely intact. The All-Maker Stones are still there. Raven Rock, despite being covered in ash, is still there. These are all historically significant changes, and ought to be documented, if not here then on some other page.

And as we can see from LoveWaffle's sandbox, documenting these types of changes for the other games wouldn't be the least bit problematic. • JA^T 20:10, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

But, do they need to be documented here? It seems pointless IMO. Lore lists all the games that locations were featured it, and while a Main space or Lore article (the second, for lack of a better place) would be cool for maintaining a list like LoveWaffle's, I really can't seem to find the need to mark it on individual historical references pages when they are detailed in a place already, in addition to the prospective list of Love's, which I happen to approve of, and support the full creation of. Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 03:02, 4 January 2013 (GMT)

Neloth and silt strider, plus reference definition

I'm proposing the removal of two notes:

• "The Telvanni wizard Neloth originally appeared in Morrowind as one of the Masters of House Telvanni."
• "Northwest of Tel Mithryn, there's a lone silt strider. These were one of the main methods of travel on Morrowind."

Neloth isn't a reference to himself, is he? As Sheogorath reappearing from game to game over time isn't a reference because daedric princes have long lifespans, Neloth shouldn't be a reference either, since Dunmer also have long life spans.

Also, silt striders are native to Morrowind. It would be like finding a guar there--it lives in that area, so why would it be a reference to anything? It has persisted over time, just like Solstheim has.

It might also do some good to make a definition for a historical reference, since I'm also not sure about some others. Is it something that persists through games? Is it something out of place, like the Icarian Scrolls? Is it something that unexpectedly reappears, like Carius's zombie? Vely^►t►e 01:49, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

I agree for their removal. 50.26.0.98 02:04, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

This, I believe, is too different items that should be discussed differently. Neloth is a major character who happens to survive from a previous era. The Silt strider, on the other hand, just sits there, and doesn't actually DO anything. It cannot be interacted with, it isn't involved in any quests. In fact, it is completely useless. The ONLY reason I can see for it being there is a nod to the primary form of transportation in Morrowind. There wasn't fast travel back then, it was either guild guides, boats, or silt striders. Silt striders are actually somewhat of a cult favorite among people who originally played morrowind, and I see this as an homage to them. Talking to Dusty's owner reveals that almost all of the silt striders were killed during the red year, and that dusty might be the only one left. The devs didn't HAVE to include the silt strider in the game, as it takes up time and resources that could be used elsewhere. They made a conscious choice to include it and I definitely think it should stay. Jeancey (talk) 02:27, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

I don't see it as an homage. Sure, it could have been added because people like it, but people like werewolves and vampires too. Having a silt strider there also adds to the environment a bit. Plus, in Morrowind, it's also not possible to interact with silt striders--they just sit there unless you ask to ride one. But more opinions would be nice anyway. Vely^►t►e 02:50, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

I completely agree with Jeancey's points. It's very, very rare to see a character in more than one game (especially with this large of a time difference), so Neloth's existence (in my mind) constitutes a historical reference. The Silt Strider I feel less strongly about, but I agree with Jeancey's point that it was placed there intentionally. There is no reason that the developers had to include the Silt Strider - they could've just as easily included a book or some dialogue stating that there were few or none left. The developers included that for a reason, and I think it's a nod to the fame of Silt Striders back in the days of Morrowind. Whether that note belongs here or somewhere else, I'm not certain, but I'm leaning towards including it, because the reference was made to a past game, making it a historical reference.

As for clarifying the definition of a historical reference, I'd use the following:

A historical reference is any specific reference to a past game in the Elder Scrolls series.

The key word here is specific - it has to reference a particular game, not just some blanket event. Finding Azura's Star wouldn't be a historical reference, but finding something like the Calming Pants worn by a confectionally challenged Bosmer would be. In this case, both historical references in question are specific and unique references to Morrowind, so they would fit this definition. • JA^T 05:44, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

mudcrab merchant - moved from Easter Egg talk page

On north shore the is a mudcrab called old salty who has some unusual items including some gold could this be a reference from the mudcrab merchant in morrowind? — Unsigned comment by ‎141.0.8.24 (talk) at 00:58 on 27 February 2013

Aside from being a mudcrab, who has a few gold, there is nothing to connect it to the mudcrab merchant. If you could sell things to it, or if it talked, there might be a case for it, but there really isn't enough to connect it. Jeancey (talk) 01:32, 27 February 2013 (GMT)

Just seems like a little interesting thing, not a reference. Old mudcrab that's eaten a few interesting things. Vely^►t►e 01:40, 27 February 2013 (GMT)

Unfortunately, I have to agree. It seems likely that this was a nod to the Mudcrab Merchant, but without more evidence, it's just too weak. --Xyzzy ^Talk 01:44, 27 February 2013 (GMT)

Morrowind Soundtrack

In addition to the various musical tracks from Morrowind some of the ambient outdoor sound effects are also from Morrowind. The howl is most definitely from Morrowind in addition to several other ambient sounds heard while traveling. — Unsigned comment by 209.212.45.38 (talk) at 16:34 on 29 May 2013

Neloth references the Nerevarine

"You are too young to remember the Nerevarine. He defeated Dagoth Ur and saved us all from the Blight" -Neloth

How is that not a Morrowind reference? — Unsigned comment by Scholar of the Scrolls (talk • contribs) at 23:54 on 1 November 2013 (GMT)

There is a difference between a reference and simply talking about something from a previous game. There are too many things to consider, otherwise. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 23:54, 1 November 2013 (GMT)

The Mudcrab Merchant-moved from Dragonborn_talk:Easter Eggs

In the quest Reluctant Steward, Geldis Sadri, when asked says he wouldn't work for Neloth because he heard he talks to mudcrabs. Could this be a reference to the Mudcrab Merchant from Morrowind? Vicano (talk) 21:33, 19 June 2014 (GMT)

I'm not an expert but I'd have to say no. there is simply not enough evidence to point towards the mudcrab merchant. Dunehelm (talk) 05:03, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

I'd actually support this. The merchant isn't the only talking mudcrab from Morrowind - there are also the mudcrabs that control Caldera. —Legoless (talk) 00:12, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

… or rather control Pelagiad. ;-) It seems likely it is intended as a reference. —MortenOSlash (talk) 07:19, 14 February 2016 (UTC)