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Skyrim talk:Elder Scrolls Historical References/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Elder Scrolls Historical References discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Possible Oblivion Reference

The name of the Skyrim Dark Brotherhood quest for getting kicked out is similar in name to the final Brotherhood quest in Oblivion. (Honor Thy Mother / Honor Thy Family). Is this merely coincidence, or a reference? Schiffy (talk) 04:34, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

This seems to be a clear enough connection. Jeancey (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Obvious Morrowind Reference

I cannot believe that this hasn't been mentioned yet. With the Dragonborn DLC comes quite the reference. Just outside Raven Rock to the north, you will begin to hear an amplified (Possibly originating from the player character) voice babbling to himself, look around and you will find a wizard, come closer, and a red effect will emit in a radius and he will fly into the air screaming "I'M FLYING" He will crash into the ground, now dead with a note on him called "Journal of a Madman". I think we all know that this is a clear reference to The Scroll of Icarian Flight and A Falling Wizard. I just wanted the thumbs up first before i go ahead and add this. Oblivionite (talk) 19:17, 6 December 2012 (GMT)

There is a Dragonborn historical reference page that already has this. Iituti (talk) 23:10, 16 February 2013 (GMT)

Possible Daggerfall reference?

At the start of the quest "Unbound", Hadvar will make a comment depending on the race you selected for your character. If you choose a Breton, he will comment "You from Daggerfall, Breton? Fleeing from some court intrigue?" The line itself can be found here. This seems to me to be a direct reference to Daggerfall the game, which was all about court intrigue and the power grasping of the nobility. It would also be consistent with a pattern in Hadvar's dialogue, since another one of his comments is already listed on the page as a reference to Redguard. Surprised this was never brought up before, but I suppose Daggerfall is rather obscure. Kitkat •Talk•Contrib•E-mail 13:34, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

Not sure. High Rock history is full of "court intrigue" but I'm no expert on the classifications of these historical references. Iituti (talk) 23:16, 16 February 2013 (GMT)
The whole main quest of Daggerfall is about court intrigue, this does seem to be a perfect reference for the page. Plus, a line if you are a redguard is already on the page as referencing the game Redguard. Makes sense to be they would do the same with this race comment. Jeancey (talk) 23:36, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Possible Fallout 3 reference?

Talking to most of the guards in Skyrim will sometimes cause dialogue about someone stealing the player's sweetroll. This may be a refernce to another game: Fallout 3. While not being part of the Elder Scrolls series, Fallout 3 was another game developed and published by Bethesda Softworks, and the sweetroll remark could be a reference to the intro sequence of the game, where the player is at his birthday party, and an NPC named Butch attempts to take the sweetroll given to him as a present.— Unsigned comment by ‎67.183.89.55 (talk) at 23:55 on 18 December 2012

The mention in fallout 3 is actually a reference to the Elder Scrolls series, stealing a sweetroll is the subject of one of the situations that was used to help determine your class. Jeancey (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2012 (GMT)
Stealing a sweetroll originated in TES: Arena, released in 1994. Snowmane(talk•email) 00:22, 19 December 2012 (GMT)
I've never played Arena, but can confirm that the question came up during character creation at the beginning of Morrowind.
Sheogorath 217.212.230.200 04:27, 12 September 2013 (GMT)

Possible reference to Emperor Uriel Septim(Possible spoilers)

I was thinking about the last dark brotherhood mission in skyrim, and I remembered that when you sneak aboard the Katariah, Emperor Titus Mede II talks as if he has always known, or at least known for some time, that he is going to be asassinated by the Dark Brotherhood. In the bigginners dungeon of Oblivion, Emperor Uriel Septim hinted in dialogue that he had always known that he was going to be asassinated by the Mythic Dawn assassins. Could the dialgue from Emperor Titus Mede II be a historical reference to Emperor Uriel Septim's last moments in the starter dungeon in Oblivion.(Lordofmagicvoldemort (talk) 05:54, 8 January 2013 (GMT))

I would say no. The Dark Brotherhood had been gaining some renown for their acts, especially killing the emperor's cousin, and someone could have tipped him off (or he could have guessed). Uriel Septim dreamt of it--Titus Mede put recent events together. Not at all similar. Vely►t►e 05:57, 8 January 2013 (GMT)
Two emperors being assassinated and mentioning before had that they always knew they would be assassinated by that group seems to be an extremely concrete connection. I would support adding this. Jeancey (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Jump into the painting.

In the soul cairn there is a soul standing next to a skeleton with a coin purse next to it. If you interact with him he says "Just step into the painting" he said. Yeah, sure... like it's that simple." This seems like a reference to the A Brush with Death Quest from Oblivion where you jump into a painting to save a painter. — Unsigned comment by 184.90.239.226 (talk) at 17:44 on 5 March 2013‎

I don't recall interacting with this particular NPC, but it sounds plausible to me. --Xyzzy Talk 19:43, 5 March 2013 (GMT)
This is very clearly referencing the quest from oblivion. Jeancey (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Reference to Oblivion in Dawnguard

In the soul carin one of the souls exclaimed: "I told them to stay away from the oblivion gate but did they listen?" this is a clear reference to the Oblivion crisis.--82.46.168.98 17:47, 11 March 2013 (GMT)

Looking at this page in CSList appears to show all of the random dialogue snippets that the lost souls can say. One of them has been approved as an easter egg, while many of them could be considered historical references to previous ES games as well as accepted lore. The question now becomes which ones to add to historical references. I count three definite references to Oblivion, and one to Battlespire. Thoughts? --Xyzzy Talk 18:15, 11 March 2013 (GMT)
The references to the Oblivion Gates and the Brush of Truepaint are obvious, but the others are more vague. The mention of the Batllespire might just be a reference to the place, not the game, as most of them reference lore (the Alessian Wars, Potema, etc...) and not game events, even though I'd count it in since we haven't heard of the place in years. Elakyn (talk) 18:44, 11 March 2013 (GMT)

Daggerfall double entendre

This was brought up here a year ago, but I don't see any record of a discussion to add it to this page. The name of the "The Bee and Barb" has two meanings - it's a reference to the honey farm and fishery in the area, but also to the infamously censored scene in Daggerfall's The Real Barenziah, Part IV. When you considered all the things Bethesda had to add in Skyrim for this to work, it fits too perfectly to have been a coincidence. Bethesda consciously added elements to the Rift in Skyrim (Lake Honrich, Riften Fishery, Goldenglow Estate) so that they could make this joke with the name of Riften's inn. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 18:51, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Could you explain as to why it is a reference to TRB4? Jeancey (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
It was covered in the link I provided, but "Bee" = Barenziah, and the barb is referring to the Khajiiti genitalia. In the Daggerfall book, which is present but censored in subsequent games, a young Barenziah meets a Khajiit thief and prostitutes herself in public to him. This takes place in an inn in Riften, and The Bee and Barb is the only inn in Riften. When you consider all the different ways they could have portrayed Riften and the surrounding area, and all the different names they could have given the inn, it's clear that this is a tongue-in-cheek nod to their most infamous, censored in-game text. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 19:02, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) Oh I know what happens in the book. I just don't see the connection between the name and the inn. The Bee and Barb is currently the only inn in riften, but this could have been wildly different a couple hundred years ago (which is when this scene takes place). Even if there only was one inn at that time, the name has probably changed, due to change in owners and stuff. I just don't see the connection here... Why is Barenziah a bee? Why is the barb referencing the khajiit? Doesn't really make sense to me. The Honey farm and fishery reference makes lots of sense, why does there have to be a second meaning? Jeancey (talk) 19:06, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Yeah, it's an interesting thought, but I don't know. The events of Barenziah's life happened when Tiber Septim was still alive, which is over 1000 years before Skyrim takes place. Considering Keerava moved to Riften from Black Marsh, I doubt the Bee and Barb goes that far back. I just don't know if that's what they were aiming for. ThuumofReason (talk) 19:11, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
You're both viewing it from an in-game historical perspective, I'm talking about the intentions of the developers. I'm not saying the in-game owner of the inn intended it as a double entendre, I'm saying Bethesda did. Keep in mind, we knew virtually nothing about "Rifton" before Skyrim. Lake Honrich was unknown; Riften could have been landlocked. Plenty of towns are located on a shoreline, but not all have been given a fishery like Riften was. A honey farm, as far I know, is unheard of in TES games, but they decided to add one. "The Bee and Barb" as a reference to the fishery and farm makes sense because they molded Riften to make sense of it. Asking why there has to be a second meaning is like asking why Bethesda includes jokes in their games at all. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 19:26, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
It's not that I don't get where you're coming from, and your logic makes sense, I just don't know if the name is intended as a reference. I mean, in Daggerfall, there were about 5 or 6 separate inns in each major city. ThuumofReason (talk) 19:30, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
What you are saying is that they added the lake, the island, the honey farm and the fishery, all of which are major, major features of the town, quests, people, and in general change the entire feel of the region, all for the purpose of drastically hiding an easter egg in a way that we have never, ever seen before. It just doesn't make sense to do all that, so early in the development process, and completely change a ninth of the game area for a "tongue in cheek reference". I'm not denying that the name of the inn is a reference to the honey farm and the fishery. That isn't an easter egg or a game reference though, that's just in-game reference. A real owner of an inn would name it something similar in the same situation. I just don't see how or why it would be a second reference. Jeancey (talk) 19:32, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

(←) Thu'um: That was Daggerfall, this is Skyrim, where there is only one or two inns in each town and they could put some thought into each. Flip it on its head; ask yourself, "Could this have been a coincidence?" If it's harder to explain it away as a coincidence than it is to accept as a reference, then it's a safe bet it was intentional, and looking at the big picture, dismissing this as a coincidence becomes very difficult.

Jeancey: "Drastically hiding"? It's the name of the inn, and the double meaning should stand out to loremasters, the people they include such references for. And change what? Riften was basically a blank slate before Skyrim; we knew virtually nothing about it or the hold. Look at maps from Oblivion and before. Bethesda didn't have to "change" anything, merely add with purpose. And it is a video game; everything is added with purpose. How it's a reference has been explained very clearly, and as for why - why did they have a talking mudcrab in Morrowind? Why did they put a Pac-Man shelf in Endon's House in Markarth? Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 19:45, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

What hear you saying is that they named the bee and barb as a reference. Then, they were like, shoot, too obvious, and completely designed the rift in order for the Bee and Barb to have a perfectly logical meaning. That's what this would mean if it wasn't a coincidence. As you said, honey farm is completely unknown, and the lake was only added in skyrim. All the other references are added without any effect on the game world, or any large effect. They are added late in the development process. In order for this to be a reference to TRB, it would need have been planned for nearly the entirely of the development process, and the entirety of the rift designed around it. It makes zero sense. I also am not convinced that it even IS a reference. Why is barenziah a Bee? Her nickname is Berry, not Bee. There is nothing connecting bee to her, or barb to khajiit genitalia. This seems to be not even a coincidence, because there is nothing connecting them. Bee and Barb is a perfectly logical name for an Inn in riften given the surroundings. There doesn't HAVE to be a double meaning, especially since it would take an unreasonable amount of effort in order to get this double meaning into the game. Jeancey (talk) 19:53, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
There actually is a part in that book about Khajiit penises having barbs, Jeancey. In any case, I've stated my opinions on the subject, so I think I'll just leave my contributions to this discussion where they are. ThuumofReason (talk) 20:06, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Books also mention that argonians are cannibals, but there is no other evidence to support it. My personal opinion is that the story wasn't really censored, but that they didn't really like the way things were portrayed in daggerfall and they wanted to change it. We have books in skyrim describing rapes, murders, etc, and this isn't nearly that graphic, simply suggestive. Anyway, that is a separate conversation. Let's wait for more opinions. Jeancey (talk) 20:10, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) "Bee" as Barenziah is inferred from the surrounding circumstances. You're reading in my words implications which aren't there. I'm not making any assumptions about where and when in the development process this came up; I'm merely saying that it's evident in the final product that they saw and opportunity to make a joke and exploited it. I wasn't aware Bethesda had a policy of only making references late in the development process, so I'd appreciate it if you could cite a source on that, as well as the notion that adding a reference has never had a significant effect on the game world. And if you think there's no connection between barbs and Khajiiti genitalia ... are you sure you've read the Daggerfall version of the book linked to above? And, again, there don't HAVE to be jokes in the game, but here we are. And, by the way, it's not like mine is the only depraved brain that has made this connection: [1], [2], [3], [4]. I could go on. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 20:11, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Bee as barenziah, I don't see the inference. Could you spell it out specifically for me? I'm not saying that they HAVE to be late in the development process, I'm saying that almost all of them COULD be added late in the process. The name of the inn has a clear basis in the game. You made the point earlier that it seemed too much of a coincidence that they would have added a honey farm and the lake for fishing and named the inn this without having it be a reference to the book. But in order for this NOT to be a coincidence, that means that the idea for the inn had to come first, and THEN they made the lake and the honey farm and all that. Otherwise it is a complete coincidence that there is a honey farm and a fishery and an inn named because of that honey farm and fishery. You can't have it both ways. Either the reference to the book came first, and they designed the entire rift after it, or it is a complete coincidence. They are mutually exclusive. Jeancey (talk) 20:22, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) A false dichotomy. They could have developed the Rift and saw an opportunity to make a joke with the inn name a later stage. Assuming for a moment this was the case, just because they had a fishery and honey farm doesn't mean Bethesda had to utilize them in the inn name. They could've name it anything they wanted. The Drunken Angler. The Thieves' Rest. Cots and Ale. Etc., etc. They went with "The Bee and Barb", and there's absolutely nothing restricting it to one meaning. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 20:32, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
For this to work the connection has to go Barenziah (for some reason) is a Bee, Bee -> Honey, Honey farm. Khajiit = barb, barb = fish hook= fishery=lake. Honey farm on island in the lake. Inn named after that honey farm and that fishery. That is extremely unlikely. The connection between the book and the inn is extremely extremely thin, besides the barb there is nothing to connect the two. Them naming the inn solely after the honey farm and the fishery makes much much much more sense. Jeancey (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
I see now that my OP didn't accurately convey what I was trying to say. Bethesda need not "consciously" have added elements to the Rift to make this work (although they could have). They did, however, decide to give the inn this specific name, and it's more likely than not that they were trying to do more with it than allude to a fishery and a farm. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 20:46, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

(←) It actually seems extremely unlikely to me that they were doing anything else with the name besides naming it off things in the area. Like I said, the connection between the inn and the book is extremely thin, so much so that if this were a real world reference, we would never, ever include it. Maybe the Drunken Huntsman in whiterun is named after Dick Cheney shooting his friend in the face while hunting? Or the four shields tavern in Dragon Bridge is named after the fact that the house crests in harry potter are on shields and there are four of them. Those seem equally likely as this one. There simply is no more evidence to connect it to the book than there is to connect these other inn names to the references I have stated. Jeancey (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2013 (GMT)


(←) I agree that it is a reference. Alternatively they had ideas for all these places but needed names. They knew Barenziah visited the place and used the names from it to name as many places as they wanted/could from that. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:27, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

So the entirety of the Rift is a reference to this one book? Jeancey (talk) 20:29, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
No, they used an existing book with names of places in the area, keeping lore consistency. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:31, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
While I have some misgivings about it, I have to agree that this is a reference. It's just too specific. The Real Barenziah is the only time pre-Skyrim that Riften is even mentioned in lore. --~The wind, forsaken~ (talk) 21:01, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Jeancey: and I find it extremely unlikely that they were only referring to things around Riften. The connection to TRB4 is not thin at all when considering the text's particular notoriety in the ES community (and, as Anil said, the series' important connection with Riften). Is Dick Cheney a TES character? Do the Harry Potter books appear in a TES game? Clearly, there is better reason to assume a connection when it's Bethesda's own work involved than when trying to establish a relation to real-world things. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 21:05, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) I'm sorry, but I don't see the specific references here? The ONLY connection between the book and the inn is the barb connection. There is no mention of bees, or honey, or a lake, or fish in the book at all. And the fact that it takes place in riften. That's it. It is 1000 years (ish) prior to skyrim, it is unlikely that any of the buildings in the book still exist in skyrim. There is no specificity at all. Jeancey (talk) 21:07, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Do you think I'm saying that Barenziah and Therris had sex in this particular inn? Otherwise, I fail to see the relevance of the age of the buildings in Riften during the events of Skyrim. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 21:12, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
No, it is clearly not the same inn. What I am saying is that nothing in the book currently exists in Riften, so besides the fact that they were in an inn in riften and a single line of the book mentions barbs, I just don't see any connection with the book. At all. Could you point out the other connections? Maybe I missed them. I just don't see why you would think that this is a reference over the perfectly logical name. It seems to be a stretch, at the absolute best, to connect them. Without any other evidence, it doesn't fit our policy on references. Jeancey (talk) 21:15, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
We're talking about a four-word name for an inn; there aren't going to be a plethora of connections in that sense. But what you're ignoring is how those words are bound to be construed by people familiar with the relevant lore who may take the time to think about the name. I believe the words that are used, in this context, trigger lore fans to make the connection, and it's not a big leap at all to assume that Bethesda's chosen name for the inn was intended to do this. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 21:28, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Edit Break

I don't see anything in the least to support this, the name of the inn is simply a reference to the 2 main industries of Riften, which are significantly older then the time period the book is from. Riften has always been a fishing and bee keeping area so The Bee and Barb is just referencing that. Just like the Bannered Mare is just a reference to the symbol of Whiterun. If the name was something like "The Queen and the Cat" then I'd say a reference is likely. But this is completely too thin to be considered a reference to anything other then the industry of the rift. Lord Eydvar Talk|Contribs 21:31, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

(edit conflict) Is there any other connections between the inn and the book? The people in the inn, the items in the inn, quests involving the inn. It is a HUGE leap to assume that they are trying for this connection when there is a clear reason for the name. If it was named the Queen and the Cat, then clearly, that is a reference. But the name is clearly based on Riften, and the only connection is the barb, which is a single line and that's it. I have yet to see ANYTHING connecting barenziah to being Bee besides the letter of her name, and if that IS the connection, then it is either a complete coincidence, or they designed the ENTIRE rift area around the book. Jeancey (talk) 21:32, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
"The Queen and the Cat" would unambiguously refer to Barenziah and Therris; there's no charm in that. Since it's such a filthy reference at issue, it's appropriate that the name constitutes a double entendre. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 21:35, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
It really isn't that filthy of a reference... I mean, molag bal rapes a women until she turns into a vampire.... that is so much worse and it is in the game. We simply can't add a reference based on what MIGHT have POSSIBLY been the developers extremely hidden reference. Jeancey (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Now it seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not trying to put the adjective "filthy" anywhere on the page. And it's not "possibly" a reference, it's more likely than not a reference. And that's essentially the standard for the joke/reference pages. And saying the reference is "extremely hidden" is a much bigger stretch than the connection itself. It's a place name, a place name virtually all players have seen and probably been in. The name's on a sign near the main gate of Riften which most people will pass underneath when moving into the city. It merely requires knowledge of the reference, which in this case is one of the more well-known texts in TES lore due to its explicit subject matter. To a person with that knowledge, it's a connection that's easily made. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 21:52, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
I have read every book in the lore section. I have read this book. I still see no connection, and the part about the barb was so small that I didn't notice it really until someone pointed out the line. There just simply is not enough of a connection for us to add it to the page. The reference is hidden because the only connection is the word barb. That's why it is hidden, not because the name of the inn is unknown. If it were run by a female dunmer and a male khajiit, then I would support you. But it isn't. There simply is no connection evident here. The text is well known, yes, but ONLY people who are very active on this site, or those who played daggerfall and read the books thoroughly could possibly make any sort of connection if there was one. Could you also please answer why Barenziah is a Bee? Please? I asked twice now and you haven't. Jeancey (talk) 21:57, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
That attitude isn't helping anyone. B = Barenziah, B is pronounced Bee/Be. Virtually everyone who has played the game has entered the tavern due to it being where Maramal is located. That is another hidden joke, i.e. you enter a place of sex in order to marry. If consensus agrees that it is a reference it will be added. Unless you have proof that Bethesda did not name it in this manner then the subject is up for debate. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:01, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Silencer, I'm sorry, but that is idiotic. You physically *CAN'T* prove a negative. It would be impossible for anyone to refute any reference if that were the case. The inn is named because of the honey farm and fishery nearby. THAT'S why it is named. There is very little proof connecting the book and the inn, and doing so would mean that they designed 1/9th of the game around a reference. Maramal is there because it is the only inn in riften. Barenziah's nickname was never Bee, her nickname is Berry. It seems to be extremely unlikely that they designed the entire region around this reference, and much more likely that this is a coincidence that people are reading too much into. Jeancey (talk) 22:09, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Jeancey: Yes, I admit only lore fanatics would make the connection. Are they not the target market? It seems like most of the references on this page would not stand out to someone who wasn't looking for them. You were the first one to use "can't"; if that were true that we "can't" put it on the page, then the debate should end. By asking you to prove a negative, Silencer meant that the debate can continue. Edit- and, yes, the Bee=B=Barenziah part is important. If the name were "The Bait and the Barb", we would not be having this discussion. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 22:14, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
My point is this. All of the other references here are very clearly connections between two things and that is the reason they are there, or they are named that. This would be the first time that something is named for two different reasons. Like I said, there are plenty of ways that they could have made this reference obscure without finding some connection between the name of something (which is very clearly named after the industries of riften) and this book. For instance, they could have made the inn run by a female dunmer and a male khajiit. That would have had no meaning to anyone who wasn't a lore fan, and would have been a perfect reference. Instead we are trying to say that there is some double meaning to something that would require a significant amount of effort on their part in order to have happen without it being a coincidence. WHY is this a reference. WHY does barb mean a khajiit's penis rather than the fish hook (or in addition to). Is there any evidence that Barenziah is ever referred to as a Bee, or any type of insect? There just isn't enough evidence to support its inclusion. There is much more evidence for the ones that are already included than there is for this. Our policies require that we have proof, and this is entirely speculation. We need to PROVE that it is a reference. Jeancey (talk) 22:22, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
It would be added for only one reason: the TRB4 reference. It's meaning in reference to the fishery and the honey farm is not a historical reference; these things did not exist before Skyrim. If you're saying that it would be the first time Bethesda employed a double entendre or it would be the first time they had more than one reason for giving a place a name, I don't think either of those things are true. Earlier, you were insisting that these sorts of things are only added in the late stages of development, and now you're saying that if they were making a reference, they would have had entirely different NPCs running the inn? If it was a late-stage idea, it seems to me like changing these NPCs races (and likely their names, as well) could have taken a significant amount of time and would carry the risk of unforeseen complications. Anyways, the "proof" comes down to a consensus, as Silencer said. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 22:33, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

(←) What I was saying about the time of development is that the easter eggs and references could be added at any time. All they would have had to do is make new NPCs to run the inn. I can do that in the construction kit in about 30 minutes, maybe less. I never said that they were ONLY added late in the development phase, but that they COULD be added late in the development phase. This couldn't really have been added late in the development phase, it would have had to have been added quite early, and thus is different from the other references and easter eggs. This is more of an easter egg than a reference given how obscure the connection is. We have stated many, many, many times on the talk pages for both the reference page and the easter egg page that similarity in names is NOT enough evidence to be added. There needs to be some other connection between the book and the inn itself for us to add it. Adding this opens the gate for dozens of the previous suggestions to be added, due to lack of evidence no longer being a disqualifying factor. Jeancey (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Someone messing around with the construction kit doesn't have to worry about minimizing potential bugs before an international release date like Bethesda did. Why would this reference have had to have been added quite early? As I acceded to earlier, they didn't necessarily have to have this idea in early development. They could've found themselves with a fishery and a bee farm, and some lecherous developer who was a big fan of Daggerfall may have come up with it fairly late in the game, so to speak. The distinction we make between historical references and easter eggs is somewhat artificial; I agree that this reference aptly demonstrates this failing, but it doesn't make it any less a TES reference. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 22:48, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
I'm not saying it couldn't be a reference... it very well could be, but we have no evidence to support that this was their intent. That's why I said, there would need to be something else to connect the two. Otherwise we are adding pure speculation to the page, and opening the door to any other speculation to be added. For instance, barenziah stayed in the inn in whiterun, and, as a queen, has a royal banner, and is a female who travels a lot. The Bannered Mare could easily be a reference to this book as well, because a horse is used for travel, a mare is female, and she, as a queen, has a banner. There is much more to connect THAT to the book than there is to connect this to the book. We simply can't put pure speculation on the page without some hard evidence, which simply doesn't exist. Jeancey (talk) 23:05, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) This really is a stretch. However, choosing the name "The Bee and the Barb" was a conscious choice, because they could've just as easily said "The Hook and the Hive" or "The Bee and the Bait". I don't think that this is a definitive reference, but it is a very strong coincidence. I would oppose stating it as a reference, but I would be okay with saying that it may be a reference. The evidence is a little too strong for it to be circumstantial, but it's far from fact, so I would be okay with calling it a possible reference. • JAT 23:06, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Also, as I have discovered while looking into this, there isn't a single male khajiit in all of riften. Given that Khajiit are perfect thieves, it seems strange that there isn't one at all. You would think that if they were going to reference this book, they would have a male khajiit in the thieves guild hanging out at the inn. That would make a case for a reference. Jeancey (talk) 23:07, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Jak: Yes, I always intended for a potential entry to say it "may be" a reference, despite my personal certainty. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 23:12, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Also, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this is more of an easter egg than a reference. If you read through the references listed, this is completely different from every other reference, which are clear references and in many cases are almost word for word connections between the games. This would be the first one added with so little evidence. Jeancey (talk) 23:15, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
An Easter Egg is for non-related references to stuff outside of TES found in-game, this however is a discussion relating to a possible reference about TES related events in-game. -helenaanne  talk ♥ 23:18, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

(←) From the easter eggs page "Easter Eggs differ from in-game references in that they have been intentionally hidden from the player and are unusual with regards to their surroundings; references are often integrated into the rest of game with no attempt to keep them secret." This would be something intentionally hidden from the player (by an obscure name reference, not the location). There is clearly an attempt to hide the reference (if there is one) in the real name of the tavern, which is clearly named after the industries of riften. Thus, more of an easter egg, if it exists, albeit an easter egg to a previous game in the series. References are specific, unambiguous things, like the dark brotherhood quest to kill a ship captain being on the ship, the Red Wave in skyrim and the reward for it being the sword Redwave in oblivion, or Carius appearing in both Bloodmoon and Dragonborn, The witches from the altar of thrond in BM appearing at the same location as hags in dragonborn. Those are references. This is hidden in the name, and thus would be more of an easter egg, despite it being TES related. Jeancey (talk) 23:22, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

This is beyond ridiculous, not every reference on the page is stated as a certainty. And as it refers to previous items about The Elder Scrolls it belongs on this page and this page alone. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:27, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Fine. Whatever. I quit. If you guys think this is a reference add it. But the next time anything gets shot down to not having enough evidence, I will vehemently support it and point to this as clear proof that we add things without evidence. Not having enough evidence is clearly not enough to disqualify something from being a reference or an easter egg. Anything that has a similar name is now a reference. I will now be reopening archived discussions that failed due to the evidence being weak. Jeancey (talk) 23:32, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict × 4) The definition for Historical References is simply "...events in the history of The Elder Scrolls." We ought to remove the "hidden" part of Easter Eggs, as hidden is subjective and conflicts with this definition. The key thing is that this refers to a past event within the Elder Scrolls series; thus, it's a Historical Reference. Simple as that. The evidence isn't strong enough to consider this a fact; however, it's far from circumstantial. The developers made a conscious choice when they named "The Bee and the Barb", and they may or may not have had this story in mind. Therefore, I say we list it as a possible reference, instead of a definitive one.
And Jeancey, being on the other end of consensus is no excuse for having a bad attitude, accusing us of holding positions that we don't, and suggesting that we should start doing inane acts. Be rational. You're not always right (or in this case, what has been decided as "right" doesn't coincide with your views). I'm proposing a perfectly legitimate compromise that fits well within our site policies and conveys the information as accurately as possible without stating it as a fact. There isn't enough evidence to say it's absolutely a reference, you're right, but there's too much evidence to not say anything about it. It's possibly a reference, so we'll call it a possible reference. I don't see what's wrong with that. • JAT 23:37, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
I'm not saying I have to be always right, I'm saying that we should be consistent with what we have demanded of others in the past. I would also like to point out that if all references to previous games should be on the historical reference page, then the Shivering, Bloodmoon and Tribunal pages will all need to be redone. I am simply trying to illustrate how different this case is from every single other reference we have, and how little support for it there actually is, given what we have said no to in the past. Like I said, if there was anything else to support a connection between the inn and the book besides the name, I would support it. But a connection with the name has been enough to deny previous suggestions, why is this one any different? There is no real evidence to support that this was intended. No other connection. Jeancey (talk) 23:48, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
It should be self-evident why a generic Nordic name, for instance, is very different than Bethesda's unique creation "The Bee and Barb". Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 23:52, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
What about the names of the two dark brotherhood quests above? Or the character creation reference to Daggerfall, also listed above? Or the two emperors saying similar things right before they are assassinated? Why weren't they added? They have much more of a connection than this. Jeancey (talk) 23:57, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
To me, the name of the inn isn't the strongest connection. The Bee and Barb is an inn in Riften, the only inn in Riften. And the book clearly states that it happened at an inn in Riften. It doesn't need to be a perfect reference because of that fact.
And The Real Barenziah is the only lore reference to riften before skyrim. The only one. You have to believe that Bethesda looks through all the lore they have on a particular locale before they add it to the game, so they don't add anything that conflicts with it. Proof: that exact volume also says the Thieves Guild is in Riften, and it is. It seems completely reasonable to me that some developer saw that at some stage of development and decided to put in a reference. --~The wind, forsaken~ (talk) 00:50, 27 April 2013 (GMT)

(←) Sounds like a reference to me. Vely►t►e 02:20, 27 April 2013 (GMT)

It does seem likely that this is a reference. I support its inclusion in the article. --Xyzzy Talk 17:30, 29 April 2013 (GMT)

Edit Break 2

The opinions above seem to boil down to 7-3 in favor of mentioning that it may be a reference. I'm reluctant to treat that as a consensus, so I'd like more opinions. A poll I put up in the forums is, at the moment, unanimously in favor of treating it as a reference by 7-0. One of those votes is my own, of course, and others who have participated here may have voted there. For anyone just joining us, I'll try to sum up.

The issue is whether it's more likely than not that the developers intended for the The Bee and Barb, the inn in Riften, to be an ulterior reference to The Real Barenziah, Part IV (TRB4), the Daggerfall version of which featured sexual acts which were censored out of later versions.

Note: the claim is not that the Bee and Barb is the inn featured in the novel, nor is it that the in-game owner of the inn intended this reference. This is about the game developers' intent.

The Real Barenziah was the only source which mentioned "Rifton" before Skyrim. Part IV of this series is also a particularly notorious piece of lore due to the later-censored graphic sex scene. This took place in an inn in Riften, and the Bee and Barb is the only inn in Skyrim's Riften. The novel asserted that male Khajiit have barbed genitalia which can hurt sexual partners - in this case, Barenziah.

Why "The Bee and Barb" is a reference: Bee=B=Barenziah. "Barb" is referring to the sex scene with a male Khajiit character named Therris which took place in the main room of a Riften inn, and the Bee and Barb is the only inn Bethesda added to Riften in Skyrim. It's reasonable to assume that fans would draw a connection between it and the inn visited by Barenziah. Since "The Bee and Barb" is, at first glance, referring to the nearby honey farm and the fishing industry in Riften, a reference to Barenziah's sex scene would constitute a double entendre, or a phrase with more than one meaning. This makes it all the more appropriate, as double entendres are typically formed when one meaning has sexual connotations. It's likely that Bethesda would review all the existing information on Riften while developing it for Skyrim, and it's unreasonable to think that they would be unfamiliar with TRB4 from Daggerfall, a notorious book from another TES game from the same game studio. To a person with the proper knowledge, the connection between the inn name and TRB4 is easily made, and there's good reason to believe that it was Bethesda's intent for them to make this connection. True, only loremasters would make the connection, but loremasters are typically the target market for historical references. Considering all the different things Bethesda could've named the inn and portrayed Riften, it is more likely than not that the developers were making a tongue-in-cheek reference to the sex scene in TRB4, and unlikely that this is a mere coincidence.

Why it's not a reference: I try not make arguments I disagree with, but perhaps someone who agrees with it will have more to say. I think it's accurate to say that the three dissenters' argument is that they don't think there's enough to go on here to consider a reference probable, and believe that Bethesda would've made a reference more obvious if they were going to make one. Looking at the overall context, as well as our past standards for mentioning possible TES references and eggs, I find this argument unpersuasive. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 21:49, 4 July 2013 (GMT)

I'm not going to get drawn into this again, but essentially this would constitute the sole double entendre reference in the entirety of the TES series. Every single other reference has been very clearly a reference, and not hidden inside of anything else. Bee and Barb is clearly a reference to the Honey and Fish industries of riften, that is not in question. With such a clear reason for the name, the need to "look further" simply doesn't exist. In order for this to have been made a reference other than a mere coincidence, a large number of things would had to have been in place early in development. Because nothing is known about riften prior to skyrim (or nothing much) the honey and fish industries are brand new (in terms of lore, they were new with skyrim). Thus the argument being made for it being a reference entails that the inn name was placed, then the honey and fish industries designed around it in order to mask the reference. If this wasn't the case, then it is entirely a coincidence that the honey and fish industries were design and the name of the inn created. In short, we have a clear source of the name (the industries) and no other reference in all of the game has such a reference hidden in it when another source for that name is so clear. This would be, (in essence) unique in the entire TES universe. Jeancey (talk) 22:04, 4 July 2013 (GMT)
I restate my prior opinion, and I wonder why it even needs to be brought up again. How is 7-3 not a majority? I realize it isn't a three-quarters majority, but it is a two-thirds majority. --AN|L (talk) 22:32, 4 July 2013 (GMT)
It is because wikis are not a democracy. Voting isn't really an end, it is a way to judge consensus. Three out of ten dissenting means that consensus isn't really reached. Jeancey (talk) 22:46, 4 July 2013 (GMT)
This really isn't an area of expertise for me as I'm not too knowledgeable about lore and I'm also not a huge fan of getting into debates. However, I decided to give some input into this since I haven't been involved thus far in this and perhaps fresh eyes could help. I read through the text found on the page that Minor Edits provided a link to and I could definitely understand how someone who was familiar with the text could see this link between the text and the Bee and Barb. The two main reasons that I could see was that the exact term "barbed" was used in the description and the location was in Riften (Rifton). I don't really know about this, but if the book had unusually mature content it could be somewhat controversial and that could have made this book memorable enough for the developers to still remember this particular book during the development of Skyrim. This being said, I really see no link with the "Bee" part of the inn name. If the name was something like "Bass" or "Bat", I could see this part of the argument a little more as the first two letters would be the same. However, my personal thoughts are that the Bee part of the name is unrelated and is merely connected to one of the main markets of Riften. The "Barb" part certainly could be connected to the other main market of Riften: fishing. In closing, I could see the possibility that the name of the inn is a reference to the scene in that book, but the name of the inn definitely also has some connections to the local market. Judging by the conclusion I came up with, I doubt my input will help much, but perhaps it will. Forfeit (talk) 23:23, 4 July 2013 (GMT)
Perhaps a two-thirds majority is technically sufficient, and I would treat it as such in a more formal process. Perhaps I'm already beating a dead horse. But the way I judge things, one more dissenter, and there's no consensus here at all (as I take it that Forfeit is neutral). Further, someone may have changed their mind along the way. I wanted to see action, but I acknowledge I'm perhaps a bit biased on the matter at this point. That's the dilemma of debate. That forum poll may be biased, as well, as I put it in the lore sub-forum (people who, arguably, may be more inclined to perceive symbolism which may not be there). I just don't want to "shout down" people who may disagree with me. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 23:38, 4 July 2013 (GMT)
I hate to start up old arguments, but I suppose I'll provide my input as well. I stand by my old post that the best option is to list this as a "possible reference". No one is arguing that it absolutely has to be one, since this could very well be just another case of old loremasters with too much time on their hands. However, Bethesda is well known for making references to past games, and they have many clever people in their employ, so I wouldn't put it past them to make a sly reference like this. I'll try to deal with any concerns thus presented in this new discussion.
"Thus the argument being made for it being a reference entails that the inn name was placed, then the honey and fish industries designed around it in order to mask the reference."
Not necessarily. It is entirely possible (and likely) that someone came up with the name of the inn well into the design process, and since it was such a good pun it was put into the game, most likely by changing the name of an existing inn. This also makes sense, considering that the developers would've read any and all past material concerning Riften, and in the process become well acquainted with The Real Barenziah.
"This would be, (in essence) unique in the entire TES universe."
Just a minor point, but if I may use the overused phrase, there's always a first time for everything. Just because it has never been done before does not automatically invalidate it.
"This being said, I really see no link with the "Bee" part of the inn name. If the name was something like "Bass" or "Bat", I could see this part of the argument a little more as the first two letters would be the same."
Good point. However, "Bee" phonetically sounds like the letter B, which more directly references Barenziah, who was not known as a Bass or a Bat; also, "Bee" makes more sense given Riften's unique honey industry. • JAT 04:15, 5 July 2013 (GMT)
Btw Jak, I'm going to probably ask about it at PAX (no for sure answer for that though, they might not even know) among other things. Are you going to go to PAX this year too? We might want to double team them, if two people ask them about it they might be more likely to give an answer. Jeancey (talk) 04:29, 5 July 2013 (GMT)

(←) I agree with Jak here, this seems probable. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 04:50, 5 July 2013 (GMT)

I'm all for getting it official and asking Bethesda, but it is likely enough that they won't answer or the person you ask won't know. The game was released over a year and a half ago, and it's a big game. What do we do in that case? I don't want 'Well, bethesda didn't answer' to be used to rehash this argument again --AN|L (talk) 19:17, 7 July 2013 (GMT)
If beth didn't answer or the person doesn't know, then we'll just do what we normally would have done. Keep in mind this is in two months (give or take). This could likely be over, and a definitive answer from beth could just remove from the page all together, or simply leave it be if it is a non-answer. Jeancey (talk) 20:45, 7 July 2013 (GMT)
I agree with Jeancey, the inn's name is more likely a reference to Riften's two official main industries than anything else. Otherwise, why not call the pub in the Thieves Guild that? I read the text in question, and it clearly states "a cheap room in the slums", which would fit the location of the Thieves Guild. Add to that the fact that Barenziah joined the Guild rather than run the risk of working freelance.
Sheogorath 217.212.230.200 05:03, 12 September 2013 (GMT)

Proposed removal of the Lusty Argoniian Maid reference

  • The book The Lusty Argonian Maid makes a return in Skyrim, with a new scene in two parts. The original play was written by Crassius Curio in Morrowind.

I would like to propose that this be removed from the page. As I recall, pointing out things like "Redoran", "Hlaalu", and other common names from across the games is something pointless, so I was curious about why The Lusty Argonian Maid needs a mention. The new scene has been mentioned as noteworthy in IRC, but for the sake of being a historical reference, the new scene comes across as irrelevant. The only thing of note that I can find seems to be what comes across, from my perspective, is that the notion that the author is relevant. But, I can point out several books that appear across games and were written by in-game authors. Here's a few:

There are a few other books that have in-game authors, though I found some of them, like the Real Barenziah author from Tribunal, who don't fit quite right in the billing, in my opinion... None the less, it's a book written by someone accessible in game. The fact that the "new scene" in LAM, in my opinion, doesn't make it noteworthy, because it's new content, not something held over from the game to be a true "historical reference" to the game.

I would like to see this struck from the page, unless there is a really compelling argument that this is in fact noteworthy while the aforementioned and the ones I didn't even bother grabbing and linking are not noteworthy. Any other arguments? ES(talk•email) 00:08, 1 August 2013 (GMT)

In my view, the fact there IS new material in The Lusty Argonian Maid is precisely the reason it's worth listing here. That's what makes the refence interesting, as opposed to just the re-occurrence of some old book. Also, the Lusty Argonian Maid is a bit of a special case, holding endearment in the hearts of many players <3... Much more significant than some Historical Account IX. Weroj (talk) 01:58, 1 August 2013 (GMT)
I agree. It's a fan service, it deserves a mention. —Legoless (talk) 02:38, 1 August 2013 (GMT)


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