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Skyrim talk:Archery/Archive 3

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This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Archery discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Formula

How does the different damage ratings of the Bow plus the arrows factor into the damage of the attack? — Unsigned comment by 12.184.144.30 (talk) at 13:20 on November 14, 2011

To above^
I've done some calculations and I think I found the damage equation:
Dam = (Base x (1 + (skill/200)) x (Perk bonus)) + Arrow
It seems that Arrows don't improve with skill or perk bonuses. Perk bonus represents the 1st perk in the tree Ex: with 5 points perk bonus would be 2, with 4: 1.8
67.253.177.161 01:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Uhh, isn't the formula just (Bow damage + Arrow damage)? — Unsigned comment by 71.231.219.171 (talk) at 08:36 on 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Regarding enchants that increase bow damage, they are additive, so the formula is :
Dam = (Base x (1 + (skill/200)) x (1 + (sum of enchants)/100) x (1 + (Overdraw rank)*5/100) + Arrow — Unsigned comment by 88.170.85.182 (talk) at 14:58 on January 29, 2012
Patch 1.5 changed the damage formula such that arrows now benefit from skill/perks/enchants/potions/sneak bonus. Formula is now:
Dam = (bow base damage + bonus damage from smithing + arrow base damage) x (1+ (skill/200)) x (1+ (enchants/100) x (1 + overdraw bonus) x fortify marksman potion bonus x sneak attack bonus
Critical strike bonus damage, if any, is added to this final total. At 3/3 critical shot, the bonus damage is equal to the base (unsmithed) damage of the bow. In the case of bound bow, this is 18 damage, even if the player has the .6:mystic binding perk.
The tooltip currently displays the modified bow+arrow damage and adds the unmodified arrow damage to this total. The latter addition is an error. From a normal full draw shot, unarmored enemies will take damage equal to the number displayed on the tooltip minus the equipped arrows' base damage.
The following was part of the patch notes for the beta patch 1.6:
"Fixed issue where bow damage was being calculated incorrectly"
Could someone explain how damage is currently being calculated incorrectly?--DagmarH 20:41, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
It appears that in patch 1.5 arrows started receiving benefits from perks and skill thus inflating the amount of damage caused, this has been corrected. 67.186.182.236 22:55, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) Can anyone confirm that this has been fixed in terms of actual damage? The displayed damage now appears to be independent of the arrows but I am still getting actual damage of almost 100 points in excess of my displayed damage with an Ebony Bow and Ebony Arrows.--DagmarH 17:12, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Bulls eye

Has anyone else noticed that with the bullseye perk the paralysis takes effect just after the arrow is shot, instead of when it hits the target? It frequently results in a missed shot, as the enemy falls out of the way of the arrow. Are there any workarounds for this (besides aiming at the feet, etc)? — Unsigned comment by 130.159.144.105 (talk) on 21 April 2012

I have not noticed this, nor does it make much sense. How does the game know that the arrow will hit the target, therefor paralyzing them? Roppen 12:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
I haven't noticed this paralysis glitch personally, but it does make sense. The game's pre-calculation of the trajectory and effects of the arrow also causes the cinematic kill camera glitch mentioned further down this talk page. Gardimuer 15:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Very annoying glitch, that one. It actually exists — Unsigned comment by 89.204.137.241 (talk) at 16:56 on 23 August 2012
I had this problem aswell, in the end I used the console to remove the perk because I was missing so many shots. — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 18:55, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
This occurs because of how the game runs its calculations, apparently. When you fire an arrow, the game checks to see whether or not that arrow will hit. If it turns up a yes, it checks things such as armor damage reduction, whether to use the killcam, etc. Unfortunately, Bullseye also triggers in this stage... meaning that if it succeeds in paralyzing them, the paralyzing effect triggers before the arrow would have actually hit, as has been witnessed quite a lot by various people.
Bernkastel (talk) 22:36, 5 December 2012 (GMT)

Bow distance/draw time bug?

I was testing some bows effective range in X time and I noticed that when I was zoomed in with the 1st level of steady hand the arrow would go farther. Then I decided to see what determined how far the arrow would go, time after clicking in real life, time after clicking in game time, or based off of the draw animation. After you draw the bow "fully" it bounces twice, if you hold it a bit longer it then reaches it max range. However when I zoomed in/slowed down time I was able to get a bows max range long before the "bounces"which took about the same real time as when I wasn't slowing down time. I then added a perk to steady hand to make time go at 50% and I was able to get the bows max range before I even had the arrow level. This made me think that what determined shot distance was how long the mouse button was held after the initial click in real time. This would mean that fighting while zoomed in and time slowed would allow you to stagger and shoot farther and faster relative to the game's time. Can anyone confirm or re-create this? --Yokoshima 04:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, that's interesting, i'll see what i can do and try to recreate this, don't expect it to be quick though. Ziguildmaster 03:30, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I tested this out and for me it was confirmed for the farther and faster, however the stagger difference was almost not there. --2dum2live 13:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Arrow off target

Anyone else have a problem where the arrow seems to shoot to the side of where you aim? I aim dead centre on a person and if they're standing upright it often shoots right past them to the right. Can be really irritating and has cost me many sneak shots... Also sometimes does nothing at all, even if I'm quite close, just goes right through. Somewhat annoying! — Unsigned comment by 82.11.231.6 (talk) at 01:55 on 4 June 2012

whats your archery skill? — Unsigned comment by 24.38.235.96 (talk) at 10:15 on 15 June 2012
I have had this too, and my archery skill is at 100. I believe this is just an irritating mechanic meant to be in the game. — Unsigned comment by 2.125.215.137 (talk) at 19:33 on 18 June 2012
If you move to the side the arrow will go off target so that might be your problem if not then I agree that this is an irritating mechanic. --2dum2live 13:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
I totally forgot that I wrote this up... I'm something like level 80 odd. I'll be standing perfectly still and just let the trigger go ant it'll just shoot off to the side. Sometimes the arrow will go straight through the target without doing anything, even off I aim right at the body. The latter problem usually occurs when the target is sitting down. Must be just a random thing then. Ho hum! AyaHawkeye 21:22, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
I've done extensive testing of this. The actual shot from the bow is entirely separate from the visual feedback. The two closely correlate but not precisely. The results of combining the graphics engine with the computational one. This is most easily noticed when you fire an arrow that is an obvious miss but hits anyway. The target moving off, or you moving your aim off, after the computation has been initiated. If you experiment with this, firing then quickly jerking the pointer away or firing as you quickly are strafing, you may note hits at ridiculous distances away from the target. I once had a ludicrous version of this, snap shooting at a dragon flying overhead. The dragon was almost dead. My arrow went flying off into the blue with the dragon completely out of sight. The dragon was hit anyway and died yet continued to circle around and land normally then collapsed with the death sequence. You see a lot of this disparagence when using the bow. A one shot stealth kill that just hit a hand, or an enemy taking minor damage with 2 or 3 arrows in it's head. Sniffles 22:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Crossbows?

I know this question might be moot till the Dawngaurd DLC comes out, but i was wondering if crossbows would be put under this skil tree or if it would get its own. To be clear, the reason I ask is because they are adding two new skill trees for the Vamps/Werewolves, which could mean they COULD add one for crossbows. Any thoughts? — Unsigned comment by 98.218.162.126 (talk) at 14:40 on 7 June 2012

We really won't know till Dawnguard comes out. Anything else is probably speculation. Kitkat •Talk•Contrib•E-mail 14:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
As Ted Howard has stated in an interview, all perks that affect bows will also work on crossbows. --194.1.130.37 15:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

bullseye

duration?

a few seconds is exceedingly vague. how long is it?

— Unsigned comment by 24.38.235.96 (talk) at 10:14 on 15 June 2012

Zooming Bug Solution (PC)

With regards to the bug already posted on the main page: "If the player quickloads while zooming with a bow, it will cause the time, in the loaded game, to pass at the same rate as if the player were zooming. Zooming again turns it back to normal." The solution (PC only) is to remove the steady hand perks and then add them again. The console codes are: player.removeperk 00103adb, player.removeperk 00103ada, player.addperk00103ada, player.addperk00103adb. Naturally, you shouldn't need the adb perk if you only have one rank in steady hand. — Unsigned comment by 69.0.52.191 (talk) at 15:04 on 26 June 2012

Bow Unable To Fire With Any Realistic Range

I am a level 15 Male Khajiit, for what it's worth, and I have found myself unable to fire a bow. I have tested using iron and steel arrows fired from both a long bow and hunting bow, to no avail. I held the draw button for five full seconds each time I tested it, and the arrow acted as if I had simply tapped the button. I have completely unequipped all weaponry, saved and reloaded, all without success. I have already put two hours into attacking Ralof during the intro with this character, I would REALLY hate to have to start over again. — Unsigned comment by Roppen (talk • contribs) at 07:28 on 17 July 2012‎

1.6 effects cause inaccurate shots

since 1.6, effects (when triggered) while shooting an arrow cause a wrong starting position for the bow/arrow. So if I stand on a ledge and shoot down without effects, I hit my target. If the effects is triggered, I see the effect and hit the ledge instead. Should this be added to Skyrim:Glitches ? 95.88.148.72 09:24, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed the same thing. Sniffles 08:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I have also experienced this (on PC). I'll add it to the bugs section of this page. Gardimuer 15:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
This is a problem with Bethesda's implementation of the killcam, specifically, if you are referring to the killcam as "the effects". If you are not, well, the killcam does it too.
Bernkastel (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2012 (GMT)

Weird math?

I was at damage 46 with a certain bow. I added +15 archery helmet and it went up to 50. ?? Next, before using the helmet, in 3x stealth mode, I took out several giants in three shots. With the helmet it takes 4+. A little math bug? Sniffles 08:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Should be at 52.9 (rounded to 53 if the game rounds), assuming you have no other items affecting Archery. That particular item increases the damage by 15% (46 x 1.15 = 52.9), not by 15 damage (which would be 61). Vyc Ðarkshådøw 01:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Bashing with a bow

Can anyone confirm if the block perks for bashing effect bashes with bows equipped? — Unsigned comment by 207.219.69.209 (talk) at 03:32 on 4 August 2012

The short answer is no. Deadly Bash is the only perk that works but it has no practical value when used with a bow. See the article and discussion pages on the Block skill for further information.--DagmarH 04:01, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
It's arguably beneficial. Bashing can do up to 27.5 damage per bash with Deadly Bash Perk. I added this to the main article "Having high skill in Block in conjunction with the Deadly Bash perk can be useful for an archer. At 0 block skill, bow bashing only does 1.1 damage, but at 100 block skill a bow bash does 5.5 damage. With Deadly Bash perk, the 5x damage multiplier brings the bash damage up to 27.5. Bow type does not affect the damage magnitude." Source: Sandslice at forums.bethsoft.com http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1431391-how-should-i-play-a-ranger/page__view__findpost__p__21957105 --Abacus707 (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2012 (GMT)
and there's always the disarm chance with power bash, which is actually very useful for archers 50.99.131.242 18:43, 24 February 2013 (GMT)

Gaining levels

Just an odd question. I use the bow almost exclusively. After about 2 weeks of playing, Archery topped out at 100. With Oblivion, playing the same way for 2 YEARS, Archery made it into the 50's. Did they really drastically correct the amount of experience gained? Sniffles 22:05, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I think they did. Certainly the amount of experience gained per use changed as well as the amount needed for a skill increase. For me in Oblivion, Restoration was the hardest skill to increase because of the tiny amounts of experience earned per casting, and that's much easier this time around. Part of the problem may be play style, and part of the problem may be game mechanics. Bow damage is based upon the sum of the bow plus arrow damage, so in both games bows have potentially much higher base damage than other weapons. Higher damage per blow means fewer hits required to kill targets thus less improvement per combat. Stealth play and sneak attacks make this even more pronounced.QuillanTalk 14:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I'd rather say that the reason here is leveling logic. In Oblivion you got skill points for the skills you actually used for gaining XP to progress the level (and hence famous "+5 leveling"). So I'd say using bow had just some (bigger or smaller) contribution towards gaining next level, but the game in the end determined whether you earned +2, +3 or +5 to add to your Archery skill. In Skyrim every bow hit gains skill xp points your Archery skill, and only then in turn for your overall level progression. How do you think ? Anyway, it makes me wonder. Anyone counted if by the similar playstyle in parallel play when progressing just one level in Oblivion and Skyrim you would increase, say, archery by 3, restoration by 3 and armor by 2 in both games? — Unsigned comment by Baranello (talk • contribs) at 13:41 on 5 November 2012‎

Draw Time Formula

The currently shown draw time formula

full draw time = 0.4s * 1.66s * bow draw speed / (1 + Quick Shot perk)

seems to be complete nonsense. First of all, a lower weapon speed (which should SLOW down drawing the bow) gives a shorter draw time with the current one. Second, there are two multiplicative factors given in seconds in the formula (0.4s and 1.66s), resulting in second squared as the unit for the result. I have no idea what the correct formula is, but this definitely isn't it. 93.219.136.55 23:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Quit doing maths at us! Seriously though, "bow draw speed" is defined as 1/weapon speed on the next line, so as bows get heavier and weapon speed decreases, the value of "bow draw speed" increases, which in turn increases full draw time. I will say that the term "bow draw speed" is a poor choice, as it really represents a reduction in speed (that is, an increase in full draw time). These things being said, I have no idea if this formula is correct, but I would tend to agree with you that it is not, because of the seconds squared issue. Could be that the numbers are correct, and the units should be ignored in calculation, and a unit of seconds applied to the result. Either way, it's sloppy looking.Username12345 (talk) 22:23, 25 September 2012 (GMT)
Back when I made the original comment, the line defining "bow draw speed" was not yet added. Now at least the behaviour is more correct (longer draw time for heavier bows other than dragonbone), even if the wording is unclear. 93.219.136.85 14:56, 30 September 2012 (GMT)

(←) The formula is still absolute nonsense. Here's what the formulas look like when you live in only four dimensions:

base bow draw time = 1/bow speed //Bow speed is multiplied by 1.3 if you have the Quick Shot perk
bow shoot time = 0.4 + base bow draw time //Because notching the arrow takes 0.4 seconds
bow dps = (1/(1 + base bow draw time)) * bow damage //Because notching the arrow takes 0.4 seconds and recoil takes 0.6 for a total of 1

If no one has any objections, I will fix this in a few days. Anyone knows how the damage from arrows is calculated? 178.183.251.214 14:30, 18 November 2012 (GMT)

Auriel's Bow and Katria's Bow

To prevent confusion, Katria's bow (the Zephyr) has a null enchantment but a weapon speed of 1.0, which is identical to the Auriel Bow's speed. So when Katria's Bow says it fires 30% faster, it does not mean 30% faster than a same speed bow, but rather 30% faster than a dwarven bow which has a speed of 0.75. Not sure where this information should go, if anywhere, but since Katria's Bow/Zephyr was already mentioned as having great DPS in the article I wanted to add Auriel's Bow on there as well (given its higher base damage and better enchantment). There's another bow as well, Froki's Bow I believe. I've added draw speeds to the bows on the unique items page using the format on the specialty gear page for anyone curious. Is there a good place to put all the bow speeds together (such as the Bows table under Skyrim:Weapons)? --66.169.50.37 01:33, 18 October 2012 (GMT)

Bow name                        AnimSpeed   *   BaseDmg    =    DPS(sort by)

Long Bow                        1               6               6
Hunting Bow                     0,9375          7               6,5625
Imperial Bow                    0,75            9               6,75
Ancient Nord Bow                0,875           8               7
Orcish Bow                      0,8125          10              8,125
Elven Bow                       0,6875          13              8,9375
Nordic Bow                      0,6875          13              8,9375
Dwarven Bow                     0,75            12              9
Falmer Bow                      0,75            12              9
Bow of the Hunt                 0,9375          10              9,375
Glass Bow                       0,625           15              9,375
Daedric Bow                     0,5             19              9,5
Nightingale Bow (LV 46+)        0,5             19              9,5
Ebony Bow                       0,5625          17              9,5625
Stalhrim Bow                    0,5625          17              9,5625
Nord Hero Bow                   0,875           11              9,625
Dwarven Black Bow of Fate       0,75            13              9,75
Glass Bow of the Stag Prince    0,625           16              10
Forsworn Bow                    0,875           12              10,5
Zephyr                          1               12              12
Supple Ancient Nord Bow         0,875           14              12,25
Drainspell Bow                  0,875           14              12,25
Auriel's Bow                    1               13              13
Dragonbone Bow                  0,75            20              15
Bound Bow                       0,875           18              15,75
Bound Bow (Mystic)              0,875           24              21

higher DPS means faster skill level up shooting with bow in Shadowmere or any other dummy npc. Smithing, apparel and weapons enchantings, poisons, potions, ammunition and skill perks what fortify damage don't effect leveling speed --k0sh (78.60.67.100 20:30, 20 March 2013 (GMT))

Eagle Eye and Slow Time shout bug?

I'm adding this to the page under the section Eagle Eye and Steady Hand in skill usage, but it may belong as a bug or note(either on this page or the Slow Time shout page, or both. You cannot zoom in with Eagle Eye while using the Slow Time shout (no matter what level you have of Steady Hand, or if you don't have it at all). I assume this was intentional to prevent processing two slow-time effects at the same time, but I'm not sure. It might be important to some players if they planned to just use the shout rather than invest in the perks as I did. This has been noted by another user at the Slow Time discussion page. --66.169.50.37 01:29, 18 October 2012 (GMT)

Weapon Speed affects initial trajectory, ballistic arch, and thus range.

As indicated by earlier tests, the bow's draw speed (not weight or damage) is correlated with the trajectory of fired arrows (possibly their velocity as well, but my limited means of timing arrow flight showed no difference). A lower weapon speed on a bow will cause a higher trajectory initially, which has the added effect of shots landing closer to the crosshairs center at long ranges. I tested on the archery targets at Solitude (just outside the Proudpire Manor moving away from the Blue Palace). I initially used an Auriel Bow modified with 1.3 weapon speed, and an unmodified Dravin's bow as a baseline. After confirming no difference in arrow types, I used ebony arrows for the Auriel's Bow and steel arrows for the Dravin's Bow. I also drew the bow for a full 5 seconds on both bows to test a previous hypothesis that all bows gain distance from draw time, and that faster bows appeared to shoot lower because they reached full draw in less time. If someone can/would like to arrange data in a table, feel free to edit this post.
First test data: Auriel's Bow: Speed 1.3, Weight 11, Damage 13 (these are not be the original bow's stats, I had modified its base stats for this test), Dravin's Bow: Speed .9375, Weight 7, Damage 7
Target at midrange (distance between the archway and target at the location described in Solitude)
Result: Arrows fired from Auriel's Bow landed significantly lower than arrows fired from Dravin's bow. Both landed below crosshairs significantly.
Second test data: Auriel's Bow: Speed 1.3, Weight 80, Damage 13. Dravin's Bow unmodified.
Result: No change.
Third test data: Auriel's Bow: Speed 1.3, Weight 11, Damage 60. Dravin's Bow unmodified.
Result: No change
Fourth test data: Auriel's Bow: Speed 0.5, Weight 11, Damge 13. Dravin's Bow unmodified.
Result: Auriel's Bow shot much higher and closer to center, and higher than Dravin's bow. Arrow velocity appeared unchanged in a to the second, hand-timed test with time slowed down (4 seconds to target for both). Would like to see confirmation with ms timing if anyone can do that.
Fifth test: Perk Quick Shot removed. No change in trajectory.
Conclusion: The tests indicate that the initial trajectory of the arrow is governed by the bow's base weapon speed. In a less scientific test, adjusting my aim with the Dravin's bow so that the high point in the ballistic arch lined up with the Auriel's bow (I used a line in the blocks above the target as reference for both), the Auriel's bow still struck significantly higher, which suggests that even if arrow velocity isn't affected (though I suspect it is), the actual ballistic arch is flatter with slow bows, meaning the effective range is increased. Quick Shot has no effect on trajectory. I'm going to modify the article with the conclusions which I have verified. If anyone finds anything in conflict, please list your data here as well when you edit the article. (There are further tests done in the discussion archive as well, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim_talk:Archery/Archive_2#Practical_tests:_hunting_vs._daedric:_arrow_speed.2C_range). I would greatly appreciate any confirmation of the increase in projectile velocity dependent on weapon speed, since I wasn't able to verify or observe it in these tests. --66.169.50.37 01:28, 18 October 2012 (GMT)

Creation Kit gives a velocity of 3600 (= 168.75 feet per second--brief Google research suggests that this is actually roughly appropriate) for the projectiles, and the Faster Arrows mod modifies the projectiles so I assume that's effective. Perhaps the arrow speed is equal to the draw time times this value? --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 05:14, 8 November 2012 (GMT)

Stamina Bar Draining Completely

I don't recall noticing this before in my games, but since the installation of the latest expansion on the 360 (Dragonborn) some of my archery attacks are instantly draining my entire stamina bar. I will need to do some more observing, but I each time it has done this during a ranged kill cam, and I believe the paralysis effect perk kicked off in both cases as well. Has anyone else noticed this? (63.153.244.104 23:54, 4 December 2012 (GMT))

Were you using the Eagle Eye perk to zoom in? When the killcam triggers and you are zoomed in, you are considered to be zooming in for the whole duration of watching the arrow fly through the air. As a result, much more stamina is drained, because Eagle Eye is left active for longer than you would normally keep it on.
Bernkastel (talk) 22:26, 5 December 2012 (GMT)
I also noticed this. The drain only happened when performing a sneak-attack kill cam shot while zooming in (tested about 50 times). I did not have the paralysis perk taken as I had recently legendarized my archery and had only leveled back up high enough to get Eagle Eye back. It didn't happen every time, and the cinematic wasn't long enough to have drained all of my stamina even if it continued during the cinematic. Holding or releasing the zoom during the cinematic also didn't affect the drain. It seems to be an all-or-nothing occasional bug. I added it to the article. --Xyzzy Talk 19:04, 7 April 2013 (GMT)

New information for the 'Range and Trajectory' section

I just tried using Riekling Spears with two of my bows, Auriel's and a Daedric bow. In both cases, Rielking spears traveled a considerably shorter distance than arrows. When aimed at a wall from medium range, arrows would strike the wall, spears would fall to the ground short of it. This may be worth adding to the Range and Trajectory section, as right now it states that the only factor affecting range is a bow's speed. -Trogdor

Draw speed formula is wrong

using a stop watch, i put hunting bow (no perks) speed at roughly 1 shot every 2 second. the formula says it should be 1 shot every 3 second, (or 1 in 4 if we go by minimal shoot speed). the formula is Wrong Dawn (talk) 08:01, 2 March 2013 (GMT)

ok i was just confused by the 2 part formula, now merged it into one part formula. still the "minimal shot time" doesn't match with in game testing. Where's the +1 second coming from? Dawn (talk) 17:40, 2 March 2013 (GMT)
Well it depends how you measured the whole thing. I think you're right though, because counting the nocking time for both arrows and the rest from the first shot, it gives you 1.4 second, and I'm pretty sure that it doesn't take 0.8 sec to draw a hunting bow, that's probably closer to the speed of an elven or glass bow. Elakyn (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2013 (GMT)

Aren't bows silent?

Recently,I've been doing quests for the Dark Brotherhood,and was completely hidden,shot my target,and she died immediately.Then the guards started to attack.I thought bows were supposed to be silent.Alduin,Bane of Kings (talk) 19:58, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

Only going by RL archery which the game seems to follow pretty closely, both the bow and the arrow are noisy. The arrow makes an impact noise while the bow, specifically the string, makes a high pitched whistling sound. — Unsigned comment by Sniffles (talk • contribs) at 03:36 on 31 March 2013‎
Any comparison to RL mechanics is irrelevant. Any attack with a weapon larger than a dagger (including bows) makes noise, even if you are completely hidden. Any enemy within hearing/sight range of you or your victim can be alerted by your victim's death, as noted on the Sneak page. --Xyzzy Talk 18:56, 7 April 2013 (GMT)
In the game, bows are silent; arrows, however, are not. An enemy can hear an in-flight arrow from several yards. Also, as Xyzzy mentioned, enemies always react when one of them dies, no matter if you are sneaking and yards away. 82.243.194.53 23:22, 7 April 2013 (GMT)

Bullseye bug

For what it is worth, with the bullseye perk, when paralysis occurs, the arrow damage is reduced or entirely eliminated. Tested at medium to close range, sometimes the enemy will lose no health, 1/2 health, or around 90%. Enemies that are down on the ground from paralyze can be re-paralyzed by shooting them again. which may not kill them even when they have almost no health left.

Extreme example1. Shot a draugr at quite close range. Paralyze took effect and it went down with no health loss. It got up and I shot it again. It took 1/2 health loss and went down again. It got up and I shot it a third time. Again it paralyzed and went down with health loss at 90%+. It got up and I shot it a fourth time. Again paralyzed, no health loss. Was shooting with a bow hyped to 690 damage.

Extreme example 2. Shot a foresworn, it was paralyzed and went down with no health loss. Shot it a second time while it was down. Paralyze hit again and it lost 90% health. Again, a 690 damage bow shooting nearly straight down at an immobile target.

Extreme example 3. Shot several dragons where paralyze took effect (momentary green glow). Dragons appear to be immune to paralyze. Hence, on 3 occasions the paralyze prevented the dragon from taking any damage.

Conclusion: Paralyze can interfere with proper bow function. At higher levels which the character needs to be to get the perk, it can protect the enemy and provide no benefit.Sniffles (talk) 03:59, 31 March 2013 (GMT)

New Archery Info

I just did some testing and was able to confirm most of the new archery info. Sneak does not give any extra XP, nor do any of the other things, as mentioned. – Robin Hood  (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2013 (GMT)

Perks not resetting - moved from article

*Making the Archery skill legendary does not reset the Ranger perk (probably also Quick Shot).

I tested this with both Quick Shot and Ranger perks, and they both appeared to reset normally when I made Archery legendary. I had to reselect the perks when I reached the minimum required levels (by using player.setav marksman). If others experienced this bug, we can readd it to the article. --Xyzzy Talk 03:19, 8 April 2013 (GMT)

I've experienced Ranger not resetting through normal gameplay (1.9.32.0.8). I reset my Archery skill to 15 and was wondering why there wasn't much of a difference in my combat efficiency. All perk points had been returned and all Perks in the tree were unlit, still I could run around at full speed with the bow drawn. Searching the web I found results like this to confirm my experience.Santaranger (talk) 10:04, 8 April 2013 (GMT)
Ok. I assumed that the perks were gone because they were not lit, but that may not be the case. I'll take your word for it about the Ranger perk, since that one is easy to see, but I would like someone to definitely say that Quickshot is not resetting before adding them both back. --Xyzzy Talk 13:55, 8 April 2013 (GMT)
"Quickshot is not resetting". Just confirmed it with my current character, who's almost maxed out Archery, and indeed, when I advanced the skill via the console and made it legendary, I was still drawing my bow quickly. – Robin Hood  (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2013 (GMT)
After making my archery legendary, my ranger and quickshot perks weren't removed (current char is using a crossbow, so it's especially noticeable). It was only after becoming a vampire during the Dawnguard ql that everything was then reset. Transforming into a VL wasn't necessary; it was immediately after being bit. Just thought I'd share this as a possible solution to totally resetting your char, and also warn anyone who decides to go VL after making a skill legendary before they get their perks back. Not sure if this also applies for werewolves. Rouxez (talk) 01:03, 6 May 2013 (GMT)

Archery stagger

I was looking into what conditions you need to stagger an opponent with Archery, and checked CSList. It appears that the Power Shot perk doesn't give you the ability to stagger opponents, it instead fortifies the chance to stagger by 25 points, meaning that you will still stagger opponents with Archery 25% of the time without the perk. Agreed?

Also, I had always heard that you have to fully draw a bow if you want a chance to stagger an opponent, but others have questioned this, and I can't find any documentation to support one way or the other.

Can we get some verification on these two items? --Xyzzy Talk 04:04, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

I can at least disprove that you need to fully draw the bow in order to stagger the enemy using the Perk. In order to level Archery as fast as possible, I used to fire at my enemies with maximum speed i.e. minimum draw, which resulted in enemies being "stun locked". After making Archery legendary (losing) the Perk I have not experienced any bow stagger at all. This can be explained as follows: On Weapons, every weapon class has an innate stagger value, which is 0 for bows. It is also stated that bows do gain a stagger value of 0.25 with the perk (hence the OP's observation) with a chance of 50% (as described by the perk). The question remains what the actual stagger value stands for. Is it a stagger duration factor? - Santaranger (talk) 10:29, 9 April 2013 (GMT)
Here's what I found on the Weapons talk page: According to the Creation Kit wiki, Stagger is the "amount of stagger applied on a hit. A 1.0 value plays the full stagger animation. Stagger can be reduced by a variety of factors, so a value above 1.0 does have meaning." So if this is true, it would seem that stagger duration is capped at "1.0" (however long that is), and stagger chance is always 100% unless an explicit GetRandomPercent condition is added. --Evil4Zerggin 01:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC - Santaranger (talk) 10:33, 9 April 2013 (GMT)
Stagger. I've held off commenting further on bows until I have fired 10,000 arrows. (That is a LOT of Dwemer junk). Stagger occurs all of the time but without the perk it happens in a split second and is barely noticeable. I call this an aborted stagger. This is a tiny lag where the game causes a pause while it computes if a stagger occurred or not. If the calculation comes up with a 25% of the time stagger that animation then goes off. Power shot helps quite a bit with this. No, the bow does not have to be drawn any more than minimum to get a stagger. It appears that the computations regarding stagger do not take full draw into account at all.
To test, get a cooperative target like a draugr that just stands in front of you and wails away. Wear extreme armor as legendary Ebony if need be. Use a high speed bow and low damage arrows. Falmer or Foresworn arrows and Zephyr or Auriel's is best. Go face to face with the enemy and fire arrows as fast as you possibly can. Without the stagger perk, observe how much enemy movement you get then repeat with the perk. With the perk you will usually keep the enemy perpetually staggered. (I fire 6 arrows every 10 seconds and almost never permit a close range enemy to come out of stagger as the stagger time is long enough, including the aborted staggers, to get 2 additional shots in.) Sniffles (talk) 05:28, 16 April 2013 (GMT)

Archery tips and tricks (and I'm always looking for more so please comment!!)

Archery, as replicated in the game very well, is a difficult unique skill. You have to make extremely fast calculations in your head, move very quickly yet precisely, then release very exactingly followed up by the next nock as fast as you possibly can. Once the initial skill is honed, you can start calculating your next shot, and then multiple shots, as you are setting up the first shot. You also need to be extremely familiar with gauging distances over all different terrains.

-Familiarize yourself with your controls as best you possibly can. Generally speaking, the faster you can fire the more dangerous your character is. Different bows have different characteristics. As a good example, if you aren't that good with the fire-pause-fire, Zephyr will seem pretty useless.

-Be aware of the target box or rectangle. With humanoid creatures the box is, approximately, the top of the head to the ankles and about 6 inches beyond the shoulders at each side. This box size does not vary with the target standing sideways to you. Nearly all targets have this same size box. With a huge target it becomes more obvious. As example, you can fire away all day long at the rump of a mammoth crossing in front of you and never hit it. Conversely you can hit a humanoid by firing almost one foot to the side of it's knee.

-If you can and your machine/console permits, learn the double tap. After you fire an arrow quickly tap and release the button again. If done fast enough, and the window of opportunity can be extremely small, a second arrow will be nocked and the bow drawn again. Then to repeat, double tap twice to fire and re-nock the next arrow. On one computer of mine this works about 8 out of 10 times while on the other comp it is around 2 out of 10.

-Shoot through your follower. If your target is moving laterally and your follower is getting in the way, do a snap shot when you have even the smallest clear shot at even the tiniest bit of the target box. The computation is made before the arrow leaves the bow and the arrow will pass right through your follower and hit the target instead. This takes practice but can come in very handy.

-Reset your .ini setting as mentioned elsewhere to give you infinite shooting distance. While a tiny bit turkey, it adds a whole dimension of challenge. And putting an arrow in a sleeping dragon from a quarter mile away can be very satisfying.

-Tag team with a tank follower. Handy if your character is a wuss and great for bow practice as you each try to steal each others thunder. With practice, the bow will be making nearly all the kills. In conjunction with this is the super turkey. Get a follower that cannot be killed under any circumstance like Mjoll. Then shoot her and make her drop to her knees to get her out of your field of fire. But remember, when a follower is in the downed posture, his/her target box extends up about a head height above their highest part.

-Hot key your junk and best arrows. Use the crappy ones, Falmer, Foresworn, Iron, to get the range then swap over to those glass, Ebony, dragonbone ones. If you want to turkey a bit, give your follower a lousy bow and 2 of the best arrows you can find, take away all his/her other weapons, pick a nice open space where you can find the arrows and get in a fight with some enemy that moves around a lot like mage NPCs. Then go out and pick up all the misses your follower made since they somehow multiply their arrow supplies.

-Perks. Overdraw and Critical shot are purely player preference. It's nice to do extra damage but getting more arrows into the target faster can make up for a wuss set of perks. Hunter's Discipline is useless unless you are using exotic arrows you desperately need to recover and then you should re-examine your strategies. Falmer arrows and a hunting bow with the stagger perk will take down a target just as capably as a dragon bow and arrow. Ranger is okay but getting into the right place at the right time and getting multiple shots off is usually a better idea. Archery depends on snap shooting far more than maneuvering for a better shot. Eagle Eye is necessary for the better perks that follow and on occasion getting a better idea of what the heck you are looking at. A neater trick is the extremely exotic maneuver called 'move your head closer to the monitor for a few moments'. Power Shot is the best perk you can get. Learning to snap shoot with this perk enables the wussiest unarmored character to tank through many really nasty situations. Quick Shot is the game's way of giving everyone the snap shooting speed but not the skill. If you can snap shoot and have a fast bow you won't notice any difference as the maximum speed is capped. Steady Hand is useful for those extreme distance shots and, occasionally, in a melee mess. But in a melee it can be very frustrating. Bullseye is pure crap. It over-rides the stagger effect of Power Shot, causes misses as the game computes things (on an abacus it seems), often prevents one shot kills and killing blow shots and screws up your snap shooting multiple targets agendas. Sniffles (talk) 07:11, 16 April 2013 (GMT)

For the sniper types, ignore most of the above :), though you'll absolutely want to make the .ini changes mentioned both above and on the article. Max out Overdraw and Critical Shot. Hunter's Discipline can be useful (though it's stupidly far up the skill tree, all things considered), since you'll be focusing on your more powerful arrows a bit more. Power Shot is certainly nice here as well. Add in the necessary Sneak perks, and learn to love Fortify Smithing. Properly applied, with a good sense of aim, you can get a one-hit-kill on most things, and even for the tougher creatures, if your stealth is good, you'll normally take them and all their little friends down long before they find you. – Robin Hood  (talk) 07:40, 16 April 2013 (GMT)
(Hunters Discipline should be the perk below overdraw. If you can't find your arrows most of the time consider junking your bow and grabbing a sword) Sniffles (talk) 13:22, 16 April 2013 (GMT)
Currently playing a level 81 archer myself I found the following perks to be the most useful:
  • Overdraw -- There is no reason not to maximize one's damage. Particularly on the higher difficulty settings it is vital to get that base damage figure up as much as possible, given the fact there is no armor ignore for Archery as there is for One Handed (Mace).
  • Eagle Eye -- Zooming in obviously by itself is nice but it is a prerequisite for Steady Hand, which I found to be the most useful of all.
  • Quick Shot -- Particularly in fights with multiple targets I have found it incredibly pleasant to simply fire more rounds per timeframe.
  • Steady Hand -- As far as I am concerned, the 2nd must-get for Archery, after Overdraw. There is nothing more rewarding than being able to quickly snipe 5 targets before they even have a chance to return fire a single time. Steady Hand will enable you to do just that.
-Kharay (talk) 13:35, 16 April 2013 (GMT)
Kharay, thanks very much for the input. I need to explore those... game synthesized I guess one could call them, abilities more. What are your preferred and maximum shooting distances? Sniffles (talk) 00:47, 17 April 2013 (GMT)


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