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Oblivion talk:Spell Making/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past Oblivion talk:Spell Making discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Oblivion Spell Assistant

Oblivion Spell Assistant v1.06
I have created a spreadsheet that will calculate the costs of custom spells. The spreadsheet is in XLS format, most people I expect should have Microsoft Excel to view it. There is a TUTORIAL sheet within it, and the interface should be pretty intuitive either way. I take no responsibility for any damages incurred using this spreadsheet. It has no macros anyway, so that should be a moot point. Use at your own discretion.
Oblivion Spell Assistant v1.06 Use File > Download (Ctrl+S) to save the file.
Feedback is welcome on my talk page, but if you want a response, use my email. If something goes wrong with the download, give me a yell via email. If you are sharing this file with others, please direct them to this webpage, rather than sending the spreadsheet as an attachment or via an alternative hosting service.
UPDATE: v1.06 is now on my Google Drive. Downloads shouldn't expire anymore.
Ong elvin (talk) 11:30, 19 July 2014 (GMT)

Creature Specific Spells

I thought I may add a spell combination here which I find usefull which I call Daedra Kill it's just a combination of Weakness to Magic and Weakness to Frost and then Shock and Frost Damage on Touch. As they already vulnerable to Shock I haven't added that effect but you could do that as well obviously. Whether you make it on touch, on target or give it a large area is really dependant on your level, however it is really useful in or near Oblivion gates.

I just wondered whether it's worth adding just to point out how useful it is to create spells that capilalise on certain creatures vulnerabilities.Grandmaster z0b 18:44, 6 February 2007 (EST)

Spell Making - Not enough skill.

The Spell Making Altar page incorrectly stated that you get an error message if you tried to create a spell that you cannot cast as your skill is not enough. In reality, the game allows you to make that spell, it's added to your spell book, and you get no warnings what so ever. I've edited the text to correct the misstatement.

There is no error message for creating spells with more magicka than you currently have either. — Unsigned comment by Pappasmurf (talk • contribs)

When I try to create a spell that is outside my skill level I get a message "Your skill level is not high enough to create this spell" when I hit the "create" button, and get returned to the spell making menu; the spell is not created. For example, a 60pts 15sec on target Charm spell is a journeyman-level Illusion spell ("Requires Illusion Skill of 50"). If a character with Illusion=46 tries to create it, I get the error message; the cost and magicka are all well within the character's abilities. Decreasing the spell to a 10sec duration turns it into an Apprentice level spell, and the character can create it.
On the other hand, it is true that there is no error message for creating spells that require more magicka than you currently have (and the page never claimed otherwise).
I'm playing the game without any mods on Xbox 360. Is there any chance you're playing with a mod that alters how spell-making works? Or do you have god mode enabled? In either case, I'm changing the text back on the main page, because the original version reflects how the vanilla version of the game works. --Nephele 11:19, 11 February 2007 (EST)
I'm playing on PC, with latest patch (1.51 something I believe). I don't have any other modes than 3 official ones (orrery, spell tomes, knights of the nine), but this trial was before installing them. I successfully created a spell that I cannot cast because it requires more skill. And the handbook that was packaged with the game says: "Plan carefully! Don't make spells that cost more Magicka than you have, or which require more skill than you have". It is implied that you do not get an error message. I believe this is a differenct between XBox and Pc versions of the game. I'd be glad if someone else can confirm, and fix the text. (I don't have an account, but I made the first comment) —STL
Upon more investigation, the truth is interesting. There is obviously a bug somewhere: I can create some spells, but not others (failed with a message). I'm experimenting with a true sight spell : Night-Eye + Detect Life (100 ft). I have journeyman mysticism and illusion. If the duration is very long, I cannot create thespell. However, getting duration lower (50 sec), I can create a spell, that requires expert mysticism. This requires more investigation to find the bug, but I don't have the time, if anyone can investigate I'd appreciate. Meanwhile, I'm editing the text in the main page to let people know about the bug. —STL
Any chance you get the error message when you're creating spells with one effect, but when you're creating spells with multiple effects it allows you to create spells that require more skill than you have? (Maybe especially if they are effects from two different schools, e.g., illusion+mysticism). It sounds possible that what is happening is that the game is using two different ways to figure out what the skill requirement is. When you go to cast the spell, it's adding the strength of the different effects to figure out the requirement. Perhaps when you go to create the spell, it is instead taking the strength of the single strongest effect. It's just speculation, but it's consistent with what we've each said so far. I can try some more tests following up on that idea, but it might be a couple days before I get a chance to do the tests. --Nephele 01:17, 16 February 2007 (EST)
I think having more than one effect forms the basis, but it's not enough. I get the message when I try to create the "True Sight" (Night Eye + Detect Life)spell with very long durations. Just by playing with the durations, I can create a less powerful spell, which I cannot cast but I am able to create. The Spell Making screen correctly states the skill level and school required for the spell, but as you said, it's always possible that Bethesda does not use the same calculation for rejection of spells. I'll probably have some time to try it out on the weekend. —STL

I've done some testing and it's all consistent with the game just looking at the single strongest effect to decide whether or not you are allowed to create it. I did tests with a character whose destruction skill is 60. I should be able to make journeyman level spells, i.e., any spell with a base magicka cost less than 150. I tried to create spells (all touch spells, 1 sec duration) with various combinations of Damage Health (max allowed magnitude 42 pts), Fire Damage (max allowed magnitude 62 pts), and Frost Damage (max allowed magnitude 63 pts).

  • If I set up a spell with a single effect, I could create it and cast it as long as its magnitude was at the max allowed value.
  • With a single effect, if it was above the max allowed value the required skill level was 75, and I could not create it.
  • If I set up a spell with two effects each at the max allowed value, the required skill level to cast it was 75, but I could still create it.
  • If I increased the magnitude of either effect by one point, the required skill level was still 75, but I could not create it (because the strongest effect was now over 150 base magicka cost and now that effect by itself had a skill level requirement of 75).
  • If I set up a spell with three effects, all at the max allowed value, the required skill level to cast it was 100, but I could still create it.
  • Again, increasing the magnitude of any one effect would make it impossible to create the spell.

I'm guessing this is really a glitch, although it doesn't provide any real advantage. Really it just makes you to waste your money creating a spell that you can't cast and that would be cheaper to create if you waited until you could cast it. I'll go ahead and summarize the info on the page. --Nephele 21:52, 19 February 2007 (EST)

Great work. Thanks for spending time on it, I didn't get the chance. —STL

Useful Spells to Create Page

Following up on a previous suggestion, I think it would be a good idea to create a new page to list all useful spells. I think we should combine this with a "Useful Enchantments" page, or at least use the same formatting and criteria for inclusion in each.— Unsigned comment by Grandmaster z0b (talk • contribs)

Well, we've already got Oblivion:Useful Potions, so I'd say go for it. But I would keep Oblivion:Useful Spells and Oblivion:Useful Enchantments separate - they are very different things, so I don't think they should be on the same page. --TheRealLurlock Talk 23:37, 13 February 2007 (EST)
I agree, Useful Spells and Useful Enchantments probably should have separate pages. I also agree with the point that similar formatting and criteria for the two pages would be appropriate. And with Grandmaster z0b's earlier point that just moving the spells to a new page won't be too useful without also applying guidelines and cleaning up (and probably some categories, too). So everyone's ideas sound great; anyone willing to start tackling it? I know both Lurlock and I are already overcommitted with other tasks we're tackling, so I think it would be great if you'd be willing to experiment with it, Grandmaster. Of course, I'd be happy to answer any questions that come up, help with formatting issues, or otherwise assist at any point along the way. And don't worry... you can't really do anything wrong; any efforts to improve what's there will be appreciated! --Nephele 00:29, 14 February 2007 (EST)
I went ahead and moved the entire list of spells to Oblivion:Useful Spells. It's still in dire need of cleanup and setting up some sort of criteria for what should and shouldn't be included, but it's a start. (This page is now less than half its previous size.) Anyhow, hopefully somebody will take the time to set up some guidelines and weed out the less-than-worthy candidates from the list. --TheRealLurlock Talk 09:40, 14 February 2007 (EST)
Well now that it's all going ahead I'll try and do some major cleanup on the spells first and then apply that to Useful Enchantments. I may well take you up on you offer of help with formatting Nephele. Grandmaster z0b 17:35, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Spell Stacking doesn't work like that (at least nowadays on an Xbox 360)

I made two "Weakness to Magic 100%, Weakness to Fire 100% on Self" spells and cast them repeatedly then checked my Active Effects page. The most you end up with is a magnitude of 200 Weakness to Magic and Fire. If you want to stack like that table suggests, you have to create additional spells for each multiplier you wish to achieve. You can not just repeat the same two spells over and over. RumblePen 16:51, 1 July 2007 (EDT)RumblePen

Stacking may not work on yourself, but it still works on enemies. There are often subtle differences between how an effect works on the player and how the same effect works when cast on an enemy, and these seems to be one of those cases. On Xbox 360 (with all patches), I just tested out the traditional breach spell combo on a summoned skeleton champion, with the difficulty set to maximum. After just casting the breach combo once, a 6 pt flare spell did minimal damage. After casting the breach combo five or six times, the same 6 pt flare spell killed him (i.e., did at least 2100 points of damage: a skeleton champion has 350 points of health, maximum difficulty effectively multiplies that by 6). So it's definitely still stacking just as advertised. --NepheleTalk 19:06, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

Ah. I guess that dragon being spell section should probably be removed then. Does weakness to magic stacking work with enchantments? Or is the most you'll ever get with a weapon alone is 200% in a single damage type? RumblePen 18:58, 2 July 2007 (EDT)RumblePen

The section on Oblivion:Spell Making#Spell Stacking on Self starts out by saying that this exploit is not possible after the v1.1 patch has been installed. Given that there are some people who are playing with the patch (some just so that they can take advantage of exploits like this), the information should not be removed.
As for stacking with weapons, I'd guess that you could only do it if you had two weapons with different names, and alternated back and forth between them with every strike. --NepheleTalk 00:14, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

There's still something I don't quite understand. If "Prepare 1, Prepare 2, Fatality" increases total Weakness to Magic and Fire by 300 each, shouldn't the damage multiplier only be by 9? It's increasing the spell by 300% then 300% again.--RumblePen 22:44, 5 July 2007 (EDT)RumblePen

The weakness is how much damage is increased above normal damage. So 300% weakness means damage is four times normal (100%=normal, 100%+300% = 400%). 4x4=16. --NepheleTalk 23:06, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

100 pts Max?

I'd just like to clarify something if I may. I understand that you can only make spells with a maximum of 100 pts for each effect - e.g. you can only make a fire damage spell with a maximum of 100pts. However, can you make a spell with say, 100pts of fire, frost, spark and damage health and cause 400pts of damage? Simple question I know, but sometimes these things get on top of me.

Thanks.

You can make the spell, but it would take a lot of magicka - more than most characters will probably possess. I just tried creating that spell and it takes 250 magicka to cast (and costs 750 septims to create) so only high-level characters (or mid-level with the right birthsign) will be able to cast it. The upside is that it'll kill most things in one shot - the downside is that if there's more than one enemy you'll have no magicka left. --RpehTalk 17:30, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

Terrific - thanks for trying it out. I'd like to make that sort of spell when my Destruction reaches 100, but I'm some way off that at the moment. I just wanted to check it was possible. I should have enough magicka - if I've planned it right, my character should end up with around 600. Thanks again.

Even if there are more than 3 enemies, you can easily create restore magicka potions yourself, that way it restores magicka really fast for like 69 seconds. especially if you drink 2. Kill 'em all! But see my question below too please 81.69.203.77 16:46, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Minimal values

What are the minimum permissible values for magnitude, duration, and area (assuming area>0) when making spells? I've seen implications that it's 3, 1, and 10 respectively but nowhere is it noted explicitly. Can I make a "slow" healing spell with 1 magnitude and 60 duration? A damage spell with 3 damage and 7 area? 6 area is "free" (it adds nothing to spell cost according to the cost equation: "× Area × 0.15") so I wonder why every custom spell shouldn't have it. Also, what are the limitations on mixing spell effects: I know that open lock spells have to be targeted, but can I make a "touch" spell with an area, to affect all creatures near me? Can I make a spell that deals damage to a target while also healing me?

I'm designing spells and potions to keep entertained as the game no longer runs on my system (graphics card exploded) but I have not yet had access to the Altar of Spellmaking to test these things myself, so I'm asking here.

Another question: when I cast a spell on someone and one of the effects has worn off but the other has not (has longer duration), and I cast the same spell again on the same target, will the second effect (of the first spell) never complete? For example if I cast "damage 5 health for 5 seconds & damage 10 fatigue for 20 seconds" and after 10 seconds I cast the same spell again, will the total damage after 30 seconds be 50 health and 300 fatigue? Does the above mechanic work the same way for poisons? For example if I want to stack burden effects on someone, should I use differently-named burden poisons so the second won't "cancel" the first?

I will keep checking back on this page. Thank you!

--Potion Addict

Minimum permissable value is 1 for all three fields. Yes to the slow heal spell and damage spell. The 6" area is free, but if you're firing into the middle of some random fray, you might hit an ally, so that might be why it's not included. Ong elvin 23:42, 7 November 2007 (EST)
Thanks much for your answer! This will help a lot when creating spells to keep my allies alive longer. I have read around and discovered the answer to my last question: poisons and spell effects will all "overwrite" each other if they have the same name. Still don't know for sure the limitations on what spell "ranges" I can mix (self, touch, area...) I wonder if I could make a spell that would affect "self" and an area around me, and follow me around like an "aura." Maybe this could boost myself and my summon? --Potion Addict (I'll probably register for the wiki eventually)
It is possible to create an area effect "on touch" spell, which affects the target and however much area you want around it. However, the area effect (as far as I know) only applies when you actually "touch" a target, and it may or may not affect the caster (you). A spell on "self" can not be made into an area effect. (Although there are probably mods that allow you to do that.) Vesna 20:09, 8 November 2007 (EST)
Thank you. So from what I understand from reading here and elsewhere, the constraints (without mods) are as follow:
  • Magnitude can be 1-100. All effects without a magnitude (e.g., paralyze) must be 1. (Dispel has a magnitude.)
  • Duration can be 1-120 in seconds. Effects with duration of 1 happen at the instant when the spell strikes.
  • Area can be 1-100. An area of 1 affects only the target. Self spells cannot be given an area. Note that an area <7 does not affect spell cost.
Is it OK to add the above to the article, for the benefit of anyone who wants to think about crafting spells but does not yet have access to the University? --Potion Addict
Doesn't the Area only go up to 50"? Ong elvin 07:58, 12 November 2007 (EST)
Two corrections:
  • Magnitude can be 3-100. It is not possible to select a magnitude less than 3.
  • Area can be 0 or 10-100. It is not possible to select an area between 0 (acutally displayed as "-" in the menu) or 10. And in response to Ong elvin, yes, areas larger than 50 are possible.
Note that all of these limits only apply to spells created using the spellmaking menu (i.e., the menu that appears when using the spellmaking altar). If using the construction set to create spells (such as some of the built-in spells available in the game), values 1 or 200 are possible. --NepheleTalk 23:57, 19 November 2007 (EST)
Thanks. About my last question above: Isn't this information that's suitable for inclusion in the main article? It seems at least as important as the primer on weakness to magicka stacking, which is just a particular cheesy exploit rather than the core parameters of spell making. --Nocturnal 00:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Some confusion about spell effect order

I see on this site and all over discussion that Soul Trap must come before any damage and last one second longer than the damage component. However, according to my full inventory of full soul gems, this is NOT the case. I made a version of this for each element: Fire Damage 10 points for 1 second, Soul Trap 1 second, and Calm level 12 2 seconds. This has attempted to trap everything I have killed with this line of spells. Perhaps this was changed in the most recent patch? I have vanilla Oblivion, with Horse Armor and Spell Tomes, the unofficial patch, and a load of texture replacers. Nothing that should be affecting spells like that? -- Iueras

Spellmaking

Hey, I created a spell that dealt 100 damage health, 100 fire damage, 100 shock damage and 100 frost damage + soul trap, all for the duration of 1 second. Now it seems like the spell only deals the 100 damage health. Since guards don't die in 1 shot, and minotaurs for some reason are hardly effected at all. But when hitting a lich it does mention the immunity to shock, or frost. Does anyone know why it doesn't work? 81.69.203.77 16:43, 22 January 2008 (EST)

The section about creating good custom spells says that Soul Trap needs to last one second longer than any damage effect, and it has to be the first effect on the list. Maybe that's what's causing it? Ong elvin 08:41, 15 February 2008 (EST)

Investigating Spell Stacking

Experimenting

Before I begin this long-winded explanation, I want to state that these spells are cast as a single spell. I am not casting two identical spells. I am casting one spell repeatedly. If it is relevant, mods installed are in the order Shivering Isles, Knights of the Nine, Battlehorn Castle, Frostcrag Spire, Thieves Den, Spell Tomes. Oblivion has been patched completely via Xbox Live. Ong elvin 20:14, 15 February 2008 (EST)
I have tested this using a level 42 character against an Ogre, which is probably the best I can do on X360. I also tested this against whatever other creatures were in Wind Cave. I created the following spell using Touch effects:
Soul Trap for 1 second
Fire, Frost, and Shock Damage 10pts/1sec
Weakness to Fire, Frost, and Shock 100%/2sec
Weakness to Magicka 100%/2sec
This is how I thought the spell should have stacked. Weakness effects will not affect damage on the first cast. On the second casting, the Weakness to Magicka first amplifies the Weakness to Elements, leaving you with 100% Weakness/Magicka and 200% Weakness/Elements. These then combine against the Damage effects, resulting in a 6x multiplier for elemental damage which goes no higher. The spell as described has a Base/Master cost of 66mp/13mp. I predict it to deal 30 damage on the first cast, and 180 on subsequent casts. Contrast to 1260mp/252mp for a touch spell that deals 100dmg per Element plus 100dmg straight to Health. That's a whopping 88.36% reduction of cost on the dmg:mp ratio after the initial investment.
Now,if you go back to my second sentence, I tested this at level 42 against an Ogre. They have no Weaknesses/Resistances to any elements or magic, and they have high health. Perfect targets, right? From what the "Making Good Custom Spells" section says, and I should require seven casts to remove 1014hp. I killed the Ogre in five casts. This lead me to believe that the Weak-Magic stacks upon itself, so I created this spell to further my testings:
Soul Trap for 1 second
Drain Health 100pts/1sec
Weakness to Magicka 100%/2sec
I was able to kill Ogres, and a few other tough creatures in Wind Cave, by simply chaining this spell multiple times. Ogres were killed in eleven casts. Okay, so Spell Stacking is definitely possible without using Prepare spells. However, the damage spell doesn't seem to follow the progression shown in the table on Spell Stacking. And they don't seem to follow what I predicted they should be following.
From these tests, I draw four conclusions.
  • Prepare spells are absolutely unnecessary to achieve the spell stacking effect. They can be achieved on their own with a single spell. Prepare spells would probably only be useful in reducing the total cost of a spell when chaining a long stack.
  • Extra damage/drain is sneaking in/out from somewhere. Either way, it's not following the model provided in Spell Stacking (it dictates three casts, not four, and I think that math seems to be off anyway), it's not following what I predicted. I have tried stacking the weakness effects in different ways. I can come up with a stacking order that explains requiring three casts of the Elemental Damage spell to kill a 1014hp Ogre (follow the table), four casts, six casts, and seven casts, but not five.
  • The section on Spell Stacking may very well need an overhaul in regards to Prepare spells.
  • It is possible that the Soul Trap effect is the cause of all this oddity.
Since I don't have a PC Oblivion, I would like to ask someone to use the Construction Kit to help verify these findings. Create a random creature, give it a set number of health points and keep adjusting until the exact health being damaged/drained on each cast is obtained to create a more accurate model. I don't think there's any reason to think this would work differently on PC, but I would like verification from other X360 players and PC players who are willing to spare the effort. Ong elvin 20:14, 15 February 2008 (EST)

Responses

Hmm... no responses... :/ Anyone? Help? At least acknowledge that it's interesting and if you'll investigate later? Do I have permission to update the article in light of these findings (if no one else concludes otherwise)? I'll reconfirm the findings before I make any changes, of course. Ong elvin 23:01, 23 February 2008 (EST)

I think this would be interesting to investigate, but I thought I'd just chip in and make the point that this is quite a lot of effort to ask of editors who are by and large already involved in other things. If someone has the time to do this and is willing to put in that kind of effort, I'm sure they'll speak up ;). –Eshetalk23:15, 23 February 2008 (EST)
Since you asked...
  • I don't really agree with your point that prepare spells are not necessary to achieve spell stacking. Spell stacking in the sense that is described in the article provides exponential increases in weakness (e.g., 1200% weakness after 5 casts), not just 200% weakness. In order to accomplish that you must have two differently named spells. Yes, you can add any other effects that you would like to either of the spells, and you can name them anything you want. But to achieve the effects described in the article you must have two different spells.
  • Your spell will not follow the progression in the article's charts because you are only using one spell rather than two.
  • Explaining the exact details of what is happening in your experiment is probably something that is going to require testing on the PC. On the PC you can examine your enemy's health and all active effects before and after each individual spell cast. There's no guesswork of trying to figure the exact damage breakdown. There's no need to tailor a creature to have a given number of hit points. You can just use any creature and watch its health go down. So to me it really doesn't seem worth the effort of discussing and analysing your results in excruciating detail. And I really don't have the time right now to do any such testing on the PC (in fact at this moment I can't even run the PC version of the game).
  • I'm not really sure what changes you feel need to be made to the article based on your findings. --NepheleTalk 23:40, 23 February 2008 (EST)
  • I am aware of what is meant by spell stacking in the article. And I did observe an exponential increase in damage on subsequent casts. Just to clarify, the first test I did I inadvertently had the difficulty slider 5 points towards Easy; although that just made the stacking even more obvious. The first three casts of the elemental spell described only took down about half of 1014hp. The fourth cast alone took out the remaining half of that 1014hp. Also, if I weren't able to spell-stack with a single spell, then there is no way I could have killed a 1014hp Ogre using only Drain Health 100pts plus Weakness to Magic 100pts. It would have capped at a 200pt Drain, and then I'd have to find some way to deal that other 800hp. What I observed was definitely Spell Stacking with exponential gains in a fashion similar to what is described in the article, using a single spell. The fact that I killed a perfectly healthy Ogre using less than seven casts of the elemental spell means that something is definitely happening with spell stacking. Ong elvin 09:31, 24 February 2008 (EST)
  • I can easily follow the increasing Weakness to Magic levels and interactions on the Drain Health spell, but when I added in elemental weaknesses, it got way trickier. Using neutral difficulty, I needed five casts for 1014hp on an Ogre. (Again, level 42, and I've derived the 1014hp from the relevant article.) Now, the thing is, if the spell stacked exactly as the PREPARE table suggests, it would take three casts. If the spell didn't stack at all, it would have dealt 30 damage on the first cast, 120 on subsequent casts, and taken ten casts of the elemental spell to kill, which is double what I counted. (Could also be seven if you account for Element Weakness being affected by Magic Weakness.) I calculated various different possibilities of weaknesses stacking and non-stacking. Through these various theories, I was able to come up with some weakness stacking order that results in requiring three, four, six, seven, or ten casts to deal 1014dmg. But not five. That's why I asked about finding the exact damage dealt (so the actual stacking can be extrapolated); although if you're able to check status more directly, that's works too. (I only have the Xbox version, so I don't know what tools PC players have.) Ong elvin 09:31, 24 February 2008 (EST)
  • The changes I think might need to be made is removing the mention of Prepare spells, since they might not be necessary, and an updated table of the weaknesses stacking. If the spell stacking I observed had matched the table, it would've taken three casts instead of five. It might be that this spell stacking only works on the Xbox port, which is why I also asked that other Xbox players try it out too, not just PC users. (If it's relevant, GOTY, PAL-60, Australia.) I'm also aware that editors are already involved in other projects and real life; I'm not requesting an immediate investigation, just an acknowledgement that others have read this. (If you look at the timestamp, I did wait for a week.) I feel these findings have significant meaning for Magic in Oblivion; which is like a third of your capabilities, so I don't think it should be ignored. That said, come back in a few months and investigate if you all feel like it. I called because I can't productively continue this investigation with the Xbox. I do really need that stacking order properly explained to continue further, because I can't figure out how to arrive at five casts. But again, at your leisure, because you've got priorities, and I can wait patiently until someone responds with their results. That's what the Watchlist is for. :P Ong elvin 09:31, 24 February 2008 (EST)
I have tested the two cases you mentioned in your first post. I've tested them on Ogres as well. They have a nice amount of health, and no nasty resistances. I used the tdt console command to monitor the Ogre's health.
  • The first spell hints at an exponential behaviour. I admit I should have tested this with longer spell durations, so I would have had time to write down the health values. However, what was clear is that the health damage was increased with every new cast in the chain.
  • The second spell was less effective. It just drained 100 more health which each cast. The increase itself seems constant.
This summarizes that I can confirm the test results you've seen. I think it is definitely worth it investigating this further, and I will continue this on a later day. Since I'm able to modify my total magicka to insane values, I can try to measure the health values when I increase the durations of the effects. --Timenn < talk > 09:08, 28 February 2008 (EST)
The differences in damage increase may be explained with the fact that the first spell has multiple weakness effect, instead of just one in the second spell. Only exact values can help determine whether we are dealing with an exponentially increasing amount of damage, or something that looks like it because of the multiple Weakness effects. If it is expenontial, one should expect that only 2 Weakness effect will achieve it.
Yay! Independant confirmation! Yeah, 100 health drain per cast is linear, not exponential, I probably should have noted above, but meh. Main thing is that spell-stacking is possible with the one spell, with no direct need for separate prepare spells. The Drain Health spell was pretty much the necessary "proof." Glad that someone with a PC version is already investigating. Going naked just to test at a high level is just inconvenient. I died a few times to the Ogre before I managed to pull off the Drain chain. And then I can't create custom monsters, check their active effects, spawn specific monsters... it's pretty much playing the game with a handicap, and then not being given the right tools. xD Ong elvin 07:58, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Thanks for this discussion, I found this effect myself and had some heated discussions about this single spell stacking phenomena at the official forum. I made this spell type to get 4x the damage on second and later spells but realized it was more effective than I had calculated so I did some testing and my results fit with this results.

I prefer to use only one effect typical shock or fire, have to calculate again as master in destruction. I also added drain health 100 for 1 second to the spell making it better at killing weak enemies quick and could use it as my main spell, even if it use more magic and require more casts than standard spell stacking because you can send of multiple spells fast at a distinct boss and you it’s easier to cast while avoiding enemies, having to change spells all the time makes this harder. --Zaria 14:16, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

Hi Ong elvin; you mentioned getting killed by an ogre in your trials. I recommend casting 100% Chameleon on yourself if you're going to run tests. Spell effects are additive, so it's not too hard to stack enough Chameleon effects from spells and items to render yourself completely undetectable to the world yet able to interact with it. This removes any danger to you from the experiments. --Nocturnal 00:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

PC Testing

More results:
Casts Health Damage
Method A Method B Method C Method A Method B Method C
0 1920 1920 1920 0 0 0
1 1910 1910 1880 10 10 40
2 1870 1890 1760 50 30 160
3 1780 1860 1430 140 60 490
4 1620 1820 480 300 100 1440
5 1370 1770 <0 550 150 N/A
6 1010  ? <0 910 N/A N/A
7 520  ? <0 1400 N/A N/A
8 <0  ? <0 N/A N/A N/A
Note: The third method's casts count doesn't include the Finish spell.
As you can see I didn't bother to measure all the results for the second method, as it is clearly inferior. Method A is one degree higher, but nothing like Method C, which behaves like Fibonacci. :)
I hope this helps you further. --Timenn < talk > 09:48, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Added a new subheading to distinguish PC results. Thanks for the figures. I'll have to have a closer look at 'em later; looks like an interesting puzzle. Could you add in the Weakness as well? I think Nephele said you can check monster status directly on PC. Don't really like how you've just shown total damage instead of damage at each step, but meh... I can extrapolate without problems. Off the bat, it would seem that Weakness to Magicka (Method B) as the only weakness effect behaves exactly as expected; and that while single-spell stacking works, "classic" spell-stacking requires less casts for much faster damage. However, you still didn't arrive at five casts to deal 1014+ damage... Hmm... Perhaps this unexplained behaviour is due to my using four different weakness effects? Ong elvin 08:37, 1 March 2008 (EST)

I don't see how there is any problem or unexplained behavior. Here is how I see the damage table for your tri-element damage/weakness spell. 5 hits, as predicted, kills an ogre. The total mod for each segment of the spell is the bonus for that particular elemental weakness multiplied by the bonus for magic weakness.
Damage mod for each element Total mod raw damage modded Damage Cumulative Damage
100% * 100% 100% 3*10 30 30
200% * 200% 400% 3*10 120 150
300% * 300% 900% 3*10 270 420
400% * 400% 1600% 3*10 480 900
500% * 500% 2500% 3*10 750 1650
600% * 600% 3600% 3*10 1180 2830
so 5 casts of (all weakness 100%/30 damage) does 1650 total points, with the fifth hit doing 750. alternatively, you could have used 4 casts of (all weakness 100%) plus 1 more of (30 damage) for 1180 damage. 74.94.101.116 16:32, 16 April 2008 (EDT)
Some related thoughts:
  • tri-elemental weakness spells are exactly as effective as say, fire 100%/magic 100% weakness + a 30 pt fire damage spell.
  • using prepare skill/finish combo: combining into one skill is always more damaging at the cost of more mana-intensive.
  • if I understand the calculations correctly, using 5 different prepare spells nets you 1024x damage in 5 prepare+1 finish, while alternating 2 prepare spells nets you 1089x damage in 6 prepare+1 finish. The hotkey space required might not be worth reducing your net casting time/mana usage by ~15%.
74.94.101.116 17:47, 16 April 2008 (EDT)
No, it's not necessary to use multiple spells to strike. Why? Prior hit weakness.

Fire one shot, apply 30 damage. Second shot, apply 120. Cumulative total: 150 Fire one preparation. Fire damage spell: 30*400% 120 Cumulative total: 120

The math from method C is incorrect. Worse the math is wrong the entire way. C is not more effective. Not even firing 1 and 2, accounts for the problem in the calculation, which would throw it up to 270. That single spell will stack ad infinitum until you apply damage.

On the other hand, the math stating that 1 or 3 weaknesses are identical is correct.Triaxx2 02:36, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Spell Combo

I could be wrong on this, but I believe I read somewhere on the Wiki here, that with a certain patch, Weakness to Magicka on self will no longer boost beneficial effects. Is that correct? --69.179.231.72 14:14, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Yes. According to Oblivion:Spell Making#Spell Stacking on Self, "This exploit no longer works after the version 1.1 patch has been installed. Weakness to Magic no longer amplifies any effects cast on Self." --Gaebrial 06:09, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Deleting spells...

Okay, maybe I'm a noob or a complete idiot, but is there any way to delete custom spells from my spell list? I went a little overboard... I bought every spell from every vendor I could find, and then when I figured out how to make custom spells I just went nuts.

And well long story short, it now takes me almost a minute and a half to scroll through my spell list and find the ones I need.

Is there any way, on the xbox 360, to delete or reorganize my spells?

I'm sorry, Oblivion doesn't allow you to remove any spell from your inventory. Every spell you got there will remain there for the rest of your (character's) game. Don't feel bad about it though, the game encourages you to make your own spells, so at least you had some fun in that part. ;) --Timenn < talk > 02:18, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Spell stacking on a target

It says that the exploit spell stacking on self is no longer available after an oblivion patch. Does the spell stacking on a target still work? Amantius Allectus 21:42, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Read up a few sections on this very Talk page. Ong elvin 06:12, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Using greater/lesser powers for spell making?

The section about acquiring spell effects says that you can use greater/lesser powers to create new spells at the altar, but in my experience this is not true. Am I missing something, or is the article mistaken?

Jb 13:41, 6 August 2008 (EDT) jb

If one of your powers includes an spell effect normally available at the altar than you can use that effect, but not the unique script effects etc. That should work for you.--Alphaman•T• 14:02, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
There is also the fact that whatever power you're looking for has to be available at the spellmaking altar; not all are. --Mike | Contrib 17:39, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Negative/Positive Effects

Would combining a Negative Effect with a Positive Effect reduce the cost because the spell also harms you, or increase the cost because more magical effects are being used?

i.e.

Would a Fortify Magicka on Self spell cost less (Magicka and Gold wise) or more with a Drain Fatigue on Self effect added on? -204.169.115.103 14:04, 3 March 2009 (EST)

Tested it. Nope. -Nesskid 18:26, 4 March 2009 (EST)

My Spells are Gone!!

after i make my spells at altar of spell making , i can use them whenever i want to. the problem is that when i save and exit the game ( exit to window ) then running the last save again , spells do not remain in my spells list!! i'm sure about that , they do not appear! can anyone help me ? 91.98.170.159 15:31, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

misspellings

you spelled "Altar" wrong in the redirection and search engine — Unsigned comment by 76.113.52.124 (talk) on 3 November 2009

You were referring to [[Oblivion:Spellmaking Alter|this redirect]]. As there seems no real need for such a redirect I simply proposed it for deletion. --Timenn-<talk> 15:31, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Base Cost Calculations

Under the base cost calculation it has A=Area * .15 This would mean that any spell with no are would have an A value of 0 the equation below would multiply by 0 meaning the base cost is 0? something seems wrong with this, is it supposed to be 1.15? Red Sox 06:05, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

No, the answer lies within the next line: If M, D, or A is less than 1, a value of 1 should be used. So that would eliminate the "0" issues. –Elliot talk 11:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Help with spell glitch/problem

I have put this here because it seems to be the best place for this question. I am making a spell with the following effects:

Drain Health 10 pts for 10 seconds on Touch
Command Humanoid 25pts for 3 seconds on Touch
Invisibility on Self for 7 seconds

The idea is, that I touch a person, And become Invisible, they become Commanded for 3 seconds which, I read somewhere creates an amnesia Effect (If you are not seen by them when the Command Effect is over), they soon become Uncommanded and dont remember me touching them or see me, because I am Invisible when they come back, In the 7 seconds I am Invisible I go and hide somewhere out of sight, they dont remember anything happening and I am gone,so then they keep walking along as if nothing happened. Moments Later, they die. Because the Drain Health effect (Which has been silently working all this time) has just finished he last of their Health.

When I actually do it However... The amnesia effect works very well, but it is as if the Drain Health has not Kicked in at all. At the moment I use it they glow red for a second (the visual effect for Drain Health)then I hide and wait for them to tip over dead, but they just keep walking along, ALIVE!!!

Are there any effects cancelling each other out here or something? Does anyone know why the "Drain Health" is'nt working? I am level 13, and have tried many different effect orders and stuff like that but it never works. Anyone know why this is happening?

The Drain Health only drains 10 health for 10 seconds. Volthawk 12:21, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Ooooh,

I thought that the drain health for 10 seconds would do 100 damage over 10 seconds (10 damage per second) I guess i misread the formula for drain health, that must have been what I did wrong . Thanx

Actually, it does drain 100 health points. What happens it's that for kill the enemy you must drain their health to 0, so the enemy on who you cast the spell must have more than 100 health.--MC• S'drassa •T2M 04:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
I disagree with S'drassa: Drain Health removes 10 points from the total level of health the creature had, and it keeps them removed for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, the 10 health points come back and it's as if you did nothing. If the creature had at least 11 health, this wouldn't kill it. What you seem to have been intending was damage health. The damage health effect takes away current (but not maximum) health and keeps it gone forever. So damage 10 health for 10 seconds would continue to do 10 damage every second, and keep doing it for 10 seconds, so when the spell finished the creature would have lost 100 points of health that would never come back on their own (healing would be needed to bring them back.) But this is exactly why "damage" effects are much more expensive than "drain" effects. There is a whole article devoted to this difference. See here: Oblivion:Magical_Effects#Drain_vs_Damage_vs_Absorb Draining health is really only useful to make the target that little bit easier to kill while its health is drained. --Nocturnal 18:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Damage Magicka not an available effect?

Trying to make a custom spell that damages health and magicka together, but damage magicka is not listed among the available effects, even though I'm able to cast Sever Magicka already. Anyone else have this problem? o_O 67.193.109.219 05:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

As specified in the Damage Magicka article, the spell effect is disabled at the altars. --S'drassa •T2M 15:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Magnitude

For effects that have no magnitude (i.e. Invisibility, Night-Eye) does the cost equation consider the M (Magnitude) to be 1, omit the value completely, or something else? --DKong27 Talk 03:22, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

It's likely that they have no effect on the cost at all. --Tim Talk 04:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
As it says on the article, If M, D, or A is less than 1, a value of 1 should be used. --NepheleTalk 15:50, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

fortify stacking on self

Hi,

I made 4 fortify spells (willpower +100 for 60 sec on self) with different names, stacked them and recived 500 to willpower, so I'm curios as to how much you can stack fortify spells. What is the cap for attributes? Can I achieve 1000 willpower? It seems I can not find info on attribute maximums/caps. Cheers KLF of Oz 114.72.218.79 01:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


Paralyze not showing up on altar

I have a paralyze spell, but the Paralyze effect does not show up on the altar. Is it because of my low illusion skill or am I missing something else? I looked in this article and talk page but I can't seem to find what I'm doing wrong...

As the article states, in order to create a spell at the altar, you have to have it in your spell list and be able to cast it. If you meet both of those requirements and the problem is still there, then I'm not sure what to tell you. --Darkle ~ Talk 03:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
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