User talk:Krusty/Sandbox3

Dovyn Aren

(write down all possible locations for Fathis Ules, all weekdays, including quest related events and bugs, maybe in a seperate section?)

Fathis's schedule is semi-complicated to begin with, and made more so by having at least 2 quests affecting it, but that's not the biggest problem.

Never write something twice on a wiki if you can write it once and link it. There are plenty of "important" pages on sites like this that conflict with each other because someone copied stuff between them, and then only one of the pages got updated. before long, petty-minded lazy patrollers just auto-revert any attempts to bring them back in sync because they can't be bothered to actually look at them, and besides, "the page has been like that for months, so it must be right". So the people trying to help with the wiki get frustrated and call them on it, but the patrollers are too arrogant to admit they were wrong so they just get obnoxious, so the users get more frustrated and either give up or fan the flames, and then more patrollers jump in to blindly support their buddy and THEN the users give up, and the wiki stays wrong, and everybody loses.

Not that it would ever happen here of course, but it's just a really bad idea, because you're making twice as much work for yourself even without all that drama, and it's not like there isn't enough you already want to do.  :)

- Ali — Unsigned comment by 24.180.46.112 (talk) at 17:06 on 18 April 2010

Well, my main obsession is to get NPC pages right and I have done this for 14 months - I have taken on a few of the hardest/buggiest recently, but they have to be done anyway, so I might as well start (that is why I have put them in the Sandboxes - that way, I can work on them for months if I want to - and take breaks for several weeks when I get sick and tired.) My little Fathis Ules project is the only way to find Dovyn in the evenings, so it has to be on the Dovyn page. And the Fathis Ules-page will be changed anyway so it really doesn't matter what I do on the Dovyn page. And trust me, I will not get into trouble with patrollers - I am one myself. ;) --Krusty 17:21, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not about "getting into trouble". :) You work out Fathis's schedule, and copy it to Dovyn's page, and it all looks good. A month later, you finish all the VIPs and decide to take a break for a while.

Some Unregistered looking for Dovyn for Alteration training on the last day of the game-month can't find him where he's supposed to be and eventually tracks him down in a New Place. He updates Dovyn's page, Random Patroller 1 mindlessly reverts it with "original was correct" without doing any checking, because after all, you only just redid the page, and there's 50 vandalisms in the queue to deal with. UNR asks him why he reverted it when UNR is sure it's right, because he's just seen it. So after dealing with the vandalisms and the day's inevitable "ur article seys umber dose 26 damige but i just got it and it only does 12 so i fixed ur page 4u" and doing other Useful Things Around The Site, RP has to try to reply to someone who's feeling injured. And now his SO/roomie/Mom/dog wants attention, and he's in no mood to start up the game and Wait for 20 days when he "knows" this is Just Some Random Glitch, so at best he'll say "add it to Talk". More likely, he'll just repeat "original was correct". And UNR will (somewhat understandably) respond with "@#$% you", and never waste his time trying to contribute again.

If it does make it to Dovyn's Talk page, eventually Another Patroller/Admin/Whatever (RH70, I'm guessing :P) will find the time to verify it, and it'll move to Dovyn's article.

Weeks later, someone runs into the same problem with Fathis, whose page still doesn't have this monthly deviation on it. Full of good intentions, they'll update Fathis's page. Random Patroller 2, who's 12 and just got privileges and is eager to show that he can be trusted to Defend The Wiki immediately reverts it with "original was correct", again without doing any checking, because after all, Fathis is a Really Major NPC, and there's no WAY his page could be wrong. Someone would have noticed by now. Once again, an RP Talk page gets a "why did you ...?"; once again, the RP just repeats "original was correct", still without doing any checking. The New Samaritan insists he's right. The New Samaritan finds another comment about the end-of-month case, except it's in The Ultimate Heist talk. He even links it for RP2, but Litle Timmy's having none of it. "That's an Ultimate Heist glitch, completely unrelated". New Samaritan finds Dovyn's page and links the diff of that update for RP2 as well. Know what the response to that will be? "Dovyn Aren's a different NPC. Not all Dunmer have the same schedule". Because NS is obviously completely clueless about even the most basic concepts of an RPG and clearly can't read names, and Timmy's proud of the chance to show off his knowledge and superiority to the unwashed masses. NS, not surprisingly, gives up - and that's the GOOD outcome. NS may rightly explode, causing Timmy to throw a temper tantrum because I'S A PATROLAR! and some pleb has dared to disagree with him, and ultimately the clique will band together to Destroy The Outsider.

So, that's two valuable potential contributors chased off so far, a bunch of PO'd Patrollers (who get painted as the villians of this piece, but still perform crucial services in other aspects of the site) and the Game's Greatest Merchant STILL has bad data on his page. And it's never going to get fixed except by sheer luck. This exact same scene will continue to play out at intervals, with the RPs becoming more and more confident in their "original was correct" stance every time as the page's last modification date moves ever further into the past. More first- or few-time contributors will walk away or simply become silent, disgusted with the attitude they get for trying to improve the site's content. Others who experience the bug will see the Talk notes or the RP's page, and just not bother posting about it, "confirming" the "original was correct" position even more in the minds of the RPs.

When you (or another Patroller whose curiosity is piqued and has the time and knowledge) eventually happen to handle one of the (now rare) reports, and updates Fathis's page within minutes, you're still worse off than you could have been. The players who were observant enough to have noticed the mistake and cared enough to try and fix it, especially if they were also determined enough to find out where he actually was instead, be it by scouring the city, using the console, or digging into the CS, are exactly the type of people most beneficial to the wiki's content, but those ships have already sailed.

I LIKE writing fables. It's so much less painful than trying to turn CS gobbledygook into English. :) Sure, I could have just written one sentence that would have had the same effect, but where's the fun in that? (It's a beautiful Spring day and I'm on the deck and feeling all Tiggery). :)

- Ali

I loved the fable, and I hope I don't qualify as a "Random patroller" who "mindlessly reverts" (and I'm sure all of out patrollers wouldn't do that :P). Just to make life easier for good ol' Krusty, I've tried my hand at Fathis' schedule in my sandbox here. It should be correct, but since I noticed you have an extensive knowledge of the CS, feel free to check it. There are a few bugs I've found and would be grateful if any of you could verify/refute them. Apart from that just two points: I don't think Fathis' schedule should be on Dovyn's page: wouldn't it be easier to link from this page to Fathis'? Secondly, the follow package is quite weird. Firstly its a wander package and secondly it specifies Fathis Ules in Fathis Ules' house. I'd have said he just stands still because Fathis is never there but I'm wrong here. Oh, and he doesn't follow Fathis while Sins of the Father is active. Finally, I'm not sure which bug you are referring to in the first few lines (the one about the "New Place"), could you explain that? Cheers. --SerCenKing ^Talk 21:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify - I never intended to write down Fathis Ules' full schedule on Dovyn Aren's page - only the relevant places where the two of them could be found from 7pm to 5am - with bullets - and I still intend to do that. We have never before asked anybody to check out other pages to understand a schedule, and I don't think we should start now. The section will very much look like a note, as evident in the Sandbox - and let's face it. Fathis Ulen's schedule is going to be written like all the other schedules (no bullets), so it would be extremely confusing for the player to find the exact times and days. Still, right now I'm only playing around in my little Sandbox and I might change my mind in time. Let's discuss it when I'm finished. Thanks for the Fathis schedule, SerC - it is extremely helpful. Maybe we should just write that page as well now that we are at it? And nice fable, Ali! --Krusty 21:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Oops - I somehow managed to look at the Gundlar schedule when I wrote the above response - you already started writing it. Nice! :) --Krusty 21:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

SerCenKing - the "New Place" is a hypothetical example to illustrate the dangers of "false knowledge". e.g. If all the Dunmer TG members go off to the Arboretum to worship Nocturnal on the night of the new moon, Krusty could follow Fathis around for 20 hours of REAL time without ever seeing it happen. How about if they only do it while her Daedric Quest is active? How many PCs are going to leave Leyawiin during that, and go to IC, and happen to do it on the right night? How likely is even the most open-minded RP to believe two reports of this a year when he knows Krusty DID follow Fathis around for 20 hours?

The goal of this project is to avoid false knowledge when it comes to NPC behavior - and deal with facts only, what happens in the game and have fun with the research. I can see your point, but there is not much fun in just thinking "Well, in three years a lot of editors will have filled this article with untrue facts anyway, so why bother?" We are having a good time with the NPCs, that is all - and we do our very best to make the pages as accurate as possible. Nothing wrong with that IMO. Now lets get some work done instead of all this chat. --Krusty 08:46, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

LOL! I thought I was exaggerating for effect, but Fathis DOES have a monthly event, AND it's even more insane than the one I made up! On the 18th, he goes to the Black Horse Courier offices - but only if Wilbur from the Count's Arms in Anvil is alive. WTF? Beat that!  :D

Fathis have quite a complicated daily routine so this is a complete list of the various locations where you can find Dovyn and Fathis:

After the completion of the quest The Ultimate Heist he wanders around inside Dareloth's House in the Waterfront District.

I wouldn't call it "wandering" - it's just technically a Wander package. He stands at the top of the stairs outside the Grey Fox's office

If you have completed Legacy Lost, Fathis travels to Chorrol, and you can find him at The Oak and Crosier. (For how long?)

"Forever", i.e. until you complete Sins - he won't get bored waiting.  :P

Without UOP or another Fathis fix, it really IS Forever. — Unsigned comment by Aliana (talk • contribs) at 00:17 on 20 April 2010

One last piece, which I thought was common knowledge but isn't actually mentioned anywhere on the wiki, is that EVERYONE (aside from bugged NPCs) in the IC stays at home during Light The Dragonfires, and this includes Fathis. — Unsigned comment by Aliana (talk • contribs) at 08:42 on 20 April 2010

The Black Horse Courier-event is actually something that affects a lot of IC citizens. It is because of the canceled Couriers Quest. We are aware of the phenomenon and mentions it on all pages as we go along. If you take a closer look at SerCenKings Sandbox you will notice that he already added the info as a note.

As for Light the Dragonfires and the whole "curfew" thing,we actually mentions it on a lot of NPC pages - still, I think it is a bit unnecessary and started a discussion on the subject here. --Krusty 09:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

sorry to jump-in but,

Shouldnt the undocument quest part be in the notes section? maybe a little more summarized as well ;D ;P Mikeyboy52 10:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I took a look on it and it explains the weird situation with the lack of quest updates pretty good. It could be shorter, though - and a bit more precise. We'll see how the revamp turns out, but I think it should be at the top, to avoid too much confusion. If you have any suggestions for the wording, feel free to post it here. --Krusty 16:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I meant the fact that it is an "undocumented quest". Shouldnt it be seprate? MikeTalk 14:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

You mean like a header? --Krusty 15:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Image

I've added one for Lorenz. If you want it brighter or more zoomed-in, just holla ;P --SerCenKing ^Talk 10:32, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me! Thanks a lot - and good to see you get really busy on the RC as well! :) --Krusty 12:55, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Tweaks made to Ghosts

Ok, so I've CS checked the stuff Dlarsh had put "<sup>" tags on. The enemies in Milchar, Xetrem (Limark) are generic Mania monsters: anything from Elytra to Baliwogs, from Scalons to Gnarls. I've changed one or two instances accordingly. For M'desi's skull (Rotten Den) I changed "hostile Zealot Statue" to "hostile Scalon statue", since the statue is a Scalon... no prizes here I guess XD Finally, I added in the duration of the blessing that the ghosts give you once you complete the quest: 1200 seconds.. Hope that's good enough to make the page go live. --SerCenKing ^Talk 13:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)