User talk:Dovahsebrom

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Tiber Wars

Hey. Maybe I'm missing something, but I think the inconsistency is with Barenziah being born in (supposedly) 2E 893, not the fact that the sacking of Mournhold took place outside of the Tiber Wars. Looking at the sources, I think its fairly clear that Mournhold was sacked as part of his conquest:

• The Real Barenziah: ...there was war in the west and the name Tiber Septim was on everyone's lips, spoken in hate and dread.
• Biography of Queen Barenziah: An Armistice was hastily signed by the now-eager Dunmer, but not before there were several battles, one of which laid waste to Mournhold, now called Almalexia.

The date of her birth seems to be sourced from The Daggerfall Chronicles, which came out around Daggerfall. I know the dates don't match up - but it might just be outdated or wrong as the later two sources (dated around Morrowind) make it seem like she was five years old during the wars. --Jimeee (talk) 12:14, 16 July 2014 (GMT)

Most sources claim that the linear succession of events was like this: Sack of Mournhold -> Armistice -> Numidium being handed over to the Empire -> Tamriel is conquered -> Proclamation of the Third Era. The only one that doesn't add up are the Daggerfall Chronicles, by all criteria, an outdated source (being pre-Morrowind lore). This would make sense if the Sack was an early Third Era rebellion, but that's contradicted by the fact that its result is the Armistice. I think the edit should be reverted. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 16:45, 16 July 2014 (GMT)

Done. I added a note on the discrepancy, but I would concur that the Daggerfall Chronicles date is likely the culprit here. --AN|L (talk) 16:51, 16 July 2014 (GMT)

The book On Morrowind implies that there actually weren't any battles during the war between Morrowind and the Empire, only a few border incidents. My honest opinion on the sack of Mournhold is that it occurred during Tiber's royal purges with Numidium (as mentioned in one of the Daggerfall letters), I mean he did murder the royal family. Also, read this line from The Real Barenziah

"All she could remember of that dreadful time was seeing a huge shadow with burning eyes filling the sky", this might imply that the Numidium was present Dovahsebrom (talk) 22:52, 16 July 2014 (GMT)

Hmmm, I hadn't seen that. We're getting into speculation at this point, but the Real Barenziah also speaks of "war in the west", which wouldn't make any sense if the Armistice had already been signed. Still, even if the sack happened after the armistice, I'd still consider it part of the Tiber War, after all. --AN|L (talk) 23:18, 16 July 2014 (GMT)

That "War in the West" line seems a bit strange, especially when sources like the Arcturian Heresy say that the Morrowind was only attacked after the Kingdoms of Man were conquered, and the 2nd AD was invaded after Morrowind, so there wasn't really any simultaneous war going on. The lore summed up by the page agrees with this notion, as that the empire actually was in a period of peace for a few years before invading Morrowind (at least 20 years between the conquering of Hammerfell and Morrowind). "War in the West" may actually be implying that this was during the royal purges, as the purges happened across Tamriel. I guess you are technically right when you say it could still be considered the Tiber Wars but I feel like the point should be made that the sacking probably didn't happen during the war between Morrowind and the Empire. Dovahsebrom (talk) 23:34, 16 July 2014 (GMT)

(←) Yeah, the problem is that most of the lore from that time is pretty confused (likely because most of it came from Daggerfall documents that we can no longer easily access, and because Bethesda's been a little sloppy over the years) so unless there's a source that directly names the Numidium or states when the battle was fought, it can't be added to the article. Now that I'm looking into it, Lore:Numidium says that Tiber Septim attempted to use the Numidium to kill neutral royal families after he declared the third era, so I'm guessing that was when Mournhold might have been sacked. However, the page lacks a reference, and the Biography of Barenziah, the same source that states she was five at the time of the battle, also states it happened before the Armistice. --AN|L (talk) 00:08, 17 July 2014 (GMT)

Tiber using the Numidium to kill neutral royal families as a reference on this site can be found on this page, 2nd letter. The Biography of Queen Barenziah probably wouldn't mention Tiber's royal purges seeing as that was written by an Imperial Scribe (and the Empire liked to keep what Tiber did hidden), the books credibility is heavily questionable to begin with anyways. Dovahsebrom (talk) 00:45, 17 July 2014 (GMT)