UESPWiki talk:Oblivion NPC Redesign Project/Archive 1

This is an archive of past UESPWiki talk:Oblivion NPC Redesign Project discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Feedback

First, I'm in favour of the overall idea :) (I've been involved in some of the preliminary offline discussions). Just some minor, random thoughts to add:

• With the schedule, times when NPCs eat can be important for some players, in particular people who like to use Poisoned Apples. It may be useful in the eating part of the schedule to also include a note about whether the NPC has their own source of food (in which case they are also effectively immune to poisoned apples).
• For the inventory contents, I'd vote for only including "noteworthy" items.
  • Random gold and generic shoes, shirts, and pants would not count. That alone eliminates 90% of the NPC inventory contents. ;)
    • Exception: include unique/enchanted clothing (which includes zero-weight items).
  • Keys probably should be included.
  • Food may also belong (see previous comment about poisoned apples), particularly if it's respawning.
  • For armor/weapons, I can imagine two points of view. Any armor/weapons that aren't just standard iron/fur (i.e., that you can't just find by killing any bandit or marauder) seem noteworthy. But some people might also think even the iron/fur is worth mentioning: if you're going to attack the NPC, you may want to know how good his/her offense and defense are.
• Similarly for the house contents: I think we should limit house contents to only mention the noteworthy items.
  • My main reason for wanting to add house contents is to cover items such as the Non Random Loot that appears in some NPC houses. So anything enchanted is clearly noteworthy. ;)
  • A general note about "quality" of house (upper, middle, lower) should be sufficient to cover most of the contents. For example, a house is upper class if it has silver dishes, expensive clothing, better food, and upper class containers (and is therefore of interest to thieves). The CS names make it particularly easy to identify the house's quality. So just stating that it's upper class (if necessary with a page somewhere describing what's typical for each house quality?) covers it, without having to enumerate the exact number of silver plates, silver bowls, silver knives, etc., etc.
  • Perhaps items that are needed for quests but otherwise fairly generic should be included? Silver glasses, bear pelts, lion pelts, 399 vintage wines, all come to mind. Perhaps even guaranteed yarn (rarer as a guaranteed item than you'd think)? Lettuce (which is very common, see Lettuce)?
  • Also, I already have lists of all house contents. The lists may need some tweaking to be suitable here (i.e., they include all containers, even clutter containers; they only contain ownership for doors; they leave out all the cheap dishes/cutlery which means getting a quality flag right now would be tricky), but any tweaking is probably easier than starting from scratch. (Getting house contents is more complex than getting individual NPC inventories... for which I also have lists, but that's a different story).
• Other should probably include spells and abilities. Very few named NPCs have any spells (and in many cases those spells are already mentioned), but we should remember to check that we haven't overlooked any cases.
• As part of this, I really should try to get my long-promised NPC statistics calculator put together ;) Having a project in place to update the NPC pages will help move that task higher on my priority list, at least.

--Nephele^Talk 17:31, 25 February 2008 (EST)

I think this is a good idea. NPC schedules can be important (especially if the NPC offers a service). As for the personal inventory, I think that putting more generic things (such as armor you can get from level 1-4 bandits/marauders) may be a bit too much, as the person will probably be wearing the armor/weapon anyway. Yet, the part about adding the zero-weight clothes is a good idea, as I know I've spent hours looking for a zero-weight shirt for the first several weeks that I've played the game. I'd support this just for the Unique Dialogue, as each NPC has a different thing to say, and some are noteworthy/plain amusing enough to be put on the page. So that's a yes for me. I would also definately want to participate in this project, so count me in! Vesna 18:57, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Definitely. Sounds great. Count me in too! –Eshe^talk01:10, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Naturally I'm joining as well. ;)

Just a confirmation, before I start adding some stuff. --Timenn < talk > 13:35, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Last time I said I was in on something, I went off and got married, and I'm sorry about my long absence! :P But I'm pretty sure that I can't get married again, and Rpeh said something about an outlet for creative writing with regard to the Schedules aspect. So cross your fingers that nothing terribly distracting happens in real-life, but I'm in on this as well! Kementari 03:04, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Just to clarify, by "creative writing" I obviously mean that the schedules will be based in the facts from the CS, but that there is scope for a little more more creativity in writing them up than just a dry list of times and places. I think this is one place where we could allow a little filling-in of detail to add a bit of color. For instance, Corrick Northwode's schedule should probably have a bit more emotion in it than the current "he visits her gravestone every morning at about 9 am"; after all, this is his wife we're talking about! I wouldn't want to go overboard on this and come up with back-stories taking up thousands of words but I still think there's room for a bit more than just the facts. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I was aware. Don't worry! I'm not always verbose. ;) 76.102.165.45 14:55, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Leveled Lists

If you're going to be listing inventory (either on their person or in their house), you might be well-served by starting an Oblivion equivalent of the Morrowind:Leveled Lists page, complete with redirects for all the different leveled lists in the game. This way instead of saying "a random magical sword", you can provide a link to that page, which lists exactly which swords can be found at which levels. (Cross-links within the page will handle nested lists, similarly to how I handled it for Morrowind.) This would incidentally also allow you to give more accurate lists of what merchants in the game have for sale. (One problem here is that the Mercantile perk that allows you to purchase all item types from a vendor may mean you'll have to have two lists, or somehow mark items that only those more advanced in Mercantile may buy.) I do agree though that we should probably try to limit it to noteworthy items, though it may be hard to find an objective definition of "noteworthy", since as Nephele said, maybe some people want to know about Fur and Iron armor. Mind you, I think this is much more important for vendors than, say, beggars, or other less noteworthy (and less well-off) NPCs. If there's little or no need to interact with somebody, and they're not carrying anything of particular value to steal, it doesn't seem like it should be necessary to list such minutiae. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:56, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Apologies in advance if this response seems overly forceful. It's just that I've seen occasional suggestions about creating an Oblivion page comparable to Morrowind:Leveled Lists, but I strongly disagree with the idea. Therefore I'd like to make that very clear, before such an article is impulsively created and hundreds of pages are edited to use the new article. So here goes....

I think the purpose of the wiki should be to interpret the construction set data and convert that data into a format that will be readily understood by and useful to most of the site's readers. I don't think there's anything to be gained by basically dumping raw construction set data onto the site. Raw data will only be useful to readers who already understand the construction set inside out, and those readers can just go straight to the construction set to answer their questions and figure out every obscure gory detail.

For example, take Alaston's recent questions on enchanted amulets. Would a link to the LL2LootJewelryMagic100 list in a format like Morrowind:Leveled Lists#l_b_amulets have answered his question? My guess is not a chance. Or if (after hours of sifting through the page and piecing things together) it had answered his question, the chances are that he would have actually ended up with the wrong answer, given that correct interpretation of that list (any list!) depends upon understanding how obscure flags like "all levels" work.

I've also spent time working with GuildKnight on Oblivion leveled lists using a listing comparable to the Morrowind page, so I have some first-hand experience of how hard it can be to explain those lists. If one of our most intelligent and motivated editors can only figure out the lists after multiple emails and one-on-one question-and-answer sessions, do you really think that a site reader has any chance of figuring them out? I don't.

So instead of a raw data dump, I think that our objective should be to interpret the lists. And in the case of LL2LootJewelryMagic100, for example, the ultimate interpretation is far simpler than wading through a dozen nested leveled lists would imply: you have a chance of finding any ring or amulet listed on Generic Magic Apparel and Magic Items that is available at your character's level. Do most readers care that the chance of finding a Base Ring of Destruction is 1/4 * 5/6 * 1/17 * 1/21 ? I doubt it. They just want to know that it's possible to find it if their character is level 4 or higher. Most of the work involved in interpreting the hundreds of leveled loot lists has already been done and is summarized on the magic items pages. I've gone through every leveled list combination to work out the level at which items appear. I've tried to find and document all the exceptions to the standard rules. I'd rather be told "the ring normally is found at level 4, but there's a chance it appears at level 1 in boss-level chests" than be told "go look through these dozens of lists and see if you can figure out for yourself if it ever appears at level 1" (especially since doing so requires realizing that level=1 in a LL0 list does not mean the ring appears at level 1 from that list, it just means that the level is actually determined by the LL1 or even LL2 lists that use the LL0 lists).

Could we do a better job of making the connection between "this prelate has a 100% chance of carrying a piece of jewelry" and the information on Generic Magic Apparel? Yes, I'm sure we could. But adding a leveled list data dump is not going to help make that connection. In the best case, such information is going to confuse readers, in the worst case it's going to completely misinform them. --Nephele^Talk 14:06, 28 February 2008 (EST)

I'm all for finding a simpler way to display this data if someone can come up with something. But if something says "Random Enchanted Ring", I'd like to be able to point to a list somewhere of just what rings that might include. Maybe if we just stuck with the LL0 lists which contain the actual items, rather than other lists, it might be easier for people to follow. I'd just like to be able to say something a bit more specific than "So-and-so can sell a variety of magical items". --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:20, 28 February 2008 (EST)

I could see having a link from "Random Enchanted Ring" to an entry somewhere that says "Random enchanted ring means any ring listed on the Generic magic pages, level-dependent". But I don't think we should try to create a new article that lists all of those rings. You can't even just stick to LL0 lists: the information is spread across all levels of the nesting. LL2 lists provide the level-dependence and (usually) overall percent chance of appearing, LL1 lists provide most of the items, then LL0 lists provide the fortify attribute enchantments (in the case of magic jewelry).

If anything, I could see creating a new category that lists only the randomly-spawned enchanted rings, perhaps even using the level as the sort key. So the link could be to, for example, Category:Oblivion-Random_Loot-Rings and that category's introduction then provides any necessary explanation (and states that exceptions to the standard level are explained elsewhere). Even so, I'd want to be pretty selective: I don't think we need to spell out every clutter leveled list, every unenchanted item list, etc., etc. --Nephele^Talk 14:49, 28 February 2008 (EST)

I know exactly why Lurlock wants to do this. It's a great idea and would be a huge help to everybody on the site. The trouble is that, as Nephele points out, it's simply not possible. For a long time I wanted to do a set of pages where you could click on a link and be directed to another page with a list of the things that could come up in a list and you could click.... and so on. I think it was a project listed on my user page for a while. The trouble is that there's simply too much information and too many other factors affecting what appears. You'd need hundreds of pages and even then it wouldn't really work.

I then thought about an off-site generator like the Alchemy Calculator. Again, the trouble is that there are other factors involved. You can have an inventory with, say, six things in, each of which may be enchanted, of a certain quality, or even not present at all. The number of possible outcomes it simply too large to enumerate in any sensible fashion.

Take the example Nephele pointed out earlier. For just one of the skill ranges there are 42 possible rings that can appear. 18 of those are three times more likely to appear as standard and six of them are five times as likely. In total, there are 141 different rings (I'm fairly sure!) that just one NPC can drop, with varying probabilities - and that is one of the easier inventories to decode! And now you add in the amulets and necklaces.

Morrowind was far simpler in this regard and even there, I'd say the leveled list page is on the edge of legibility. For Oblivion, brilliant as such a page would be, I think we have to admit defeat. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 15:14, 28 February 2008 (EST)

As Nephele pointed out, it took multiple lessons for her to teach me how to interpret the lists, and even now, I'm not so sure I fully grasp it. She took the time to answer my questions so that we could develop the tables on Vampire Dungeons and other "Something-Dungeons" that show what items may appear in the containers. I don't suppose a simpler version of those tables would work for this purpose, would they? --GuildKnight^Talk2me 18:24, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Order of content

I'm proposing the following order of content for all NPC pages:

• Introduction - Details the gender, race, class and location (in that order) of the NPC in question.
• Backstory - If details are known about a NPC that does not clearly fall into the other categories (for example, rumors about the NPC in question), explain them here.
• Unique Dialogue
• Quest Involvement
• Schedules
• Services
• Personal Inventory
• House Content
• Other

The idea is to merge this all into one fluently written description. If a certain section becomes relevant and large enough, it can get its own section instead. Bugs will be listed in a seperate section in any case. -Timenn < talk > 14:00, 26 February 2008 (EST)

I mostly like the order here; however, I have a couple of suggestions. First of all, House Contents would probably be better explained in some sort of table, since the containers in the house may have different items for everyone. Also, I like the Quest Involvement being listed in a separate section; a bulleted list. I guess I can understand the quests that the character is only involved in being explained in a sentence or two, but the "Quests Given," I think, should definitely be given in a list format. --GuildKnight^Talk2me 18:35, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

I did not intend for text replacing the Quest lists, sorry for not making that clear. It's an addition, the list will send people straight to the quest pages, but the text will describe the role of that particular NPC in quests.

While a table suits better if you want to display the full contents of a house, I think it's better to only name the contents that are noteworthy. Some minor loot and clutter isn't, but stuff that is of interest for thieves is. --Timenn < talk > 11:57, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

I think this order will work for 95% of the NPCs but in some cases it will need to be more flexible. Take, as a trivial example, Claudius Arcadia. I'd say that the shrine in his basement needs a fairly early mention but that the rest of the contents of his house could go in the usual place. As far as tables are concerned, again I think there's a case for "both" in some cases. Umbacano's house has a huge amount of valuable silver and the main text should just say that it's there (something like "Umbacano's house befits his status as one of the richest people in the city. It is full of valuable silverware, books and the finest food") and then maybe there could be a table at the end listing the exact contents. There may even be some occasions where clutter needs a mention: locations that always contain large numbers of calipers would be useful knowledge for people collecting them for Tove the Unrestful, for instance.

In general, I think all these ideas should be no more than guidelines. These are people we're describing and it's perfectly fair to describe them with a bit of flowery language. An overly-formulaic approach isn't going to satisfy anybody but I think the people on the list so far are sufficiently skilled editors to know what's needed. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:20, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

Reason for the Delay

Sorry this is taking longer than expected to get off the ground; it turns out my recent computer loss took a lot of stuff with it, including the ability to read my backup DVDs so I'm going to have to rewrite from scratch :( –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

NPC Existence

I just realized there's one other piece of information that's missing from most of the NPC pages, but needs to be added: when does the NPC exist in the game? Many NPCs are not enabled until a related quest is started. Some are disabled after the related quest (or forcibly killed during the quest). Also, some have very different behaviour during a related quest than either before or after the quest, and therefore will be found in different locations at different points in the game. Some of that may possibly be revealed in the analysis of the AI packages, but it's not information that necessarily qualifies as "schedule" information. But often it's buried in scripts (especially enable/disable commands), which makes it somewhat more difficult to extract. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty important for the NPC pages to explain whether or not the NPC even exists ;) --Nephele^Talk 20:55, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

Example

Oblivion:Adrian Decanius volunteered to be the first example for this new project. Feel free to edit it until we can all agree on the way to go for all NPCs. Why Adrian? Because he is a NPC with a generally boring backstory. He has no unique dialogue, and isn't involved in quests. I believe the idea of this project was to brush up the pages for those types of NPCs, which are generally in the majority in Oblivion.

A few, on this page undocumented, changes: Explicit gender mention in the description was omitted, which seems to become the consenus as discussed here. Also, Adrian's image is now in a 1:1 width×height format (instead of 4:3), which Rpeh and I agreed upon earlier could be a better standard for NPC images. The thumbnail's total size is bigger, and it covers the NPC's height better. --Timenn < talk > 10:16, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Feedback on the image used and a few tips: I agree that the 1:1 format is better, however pay attention to composition of the screenshot. [[:Image:Adrian_Decanius.jpg|Adrian]] here has a lot of empty space over him. Placing his head in the upper third, and without a line cutting through him, would give a better result. Treat NPC portraits like you would do with a human portrait, watch for poles, spires and plants "growing" out of the head. A light downward and not completely frontal angle should generally give the most pleasing results. The main purpose of portrait photography is to capture the essence of the subject, include anything that makes the NPC special, but don't clutter the background. Leave some space around the subject, allowing the eye to scan the picture. Image:OB-npc-Varnado.jpg and Image:MW-npc-Therana.jpg are some good examples. Cheers, --Benould^•T•C 11:27, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

So, I edited Adrian's page according to the proposed guidelines... any suggestions? (Of course, it still needs personal and house inventories, and also unique dialog and rumors - if there is any; Those are things I can't generate) --GuildKnight^Talk2me 18:45, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

You mean like in this example? ;) --Timenn < talk > 19:04, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Well, now I feel stupid... I didn't even notice the link to your sandbox! I just thought you were offering him... so, should I revert the actual page? --GuildKnight^Talk2me 19:20, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

No, your edit was an improvement so I don't think it is necessary to revert it because a different version exists in a Sandbox. Your edit to the example was good, though I feel a bit uncomfortable about mixing the general introduction and the NPC schedule. I'd rather have them in seperate paragraphs. --Timenn < talk > 11:50, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

I'm in

I just wanted to say that you can count me in to this project. - Game Lord^{Talk|Contribs} 15:15, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

I don't normally do "Me too" posts, but count me in too. I hope others will be gentle when I mess up! Dr Jones 16:59, 9 January 2009 (EST)

I guess I'm in too, if only for checking (no PC version of Oblivion, epic frown) --Farglenargle 22:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's Get Going

Okay, I think we have enough people interested to get this thing moving and that there's consensus on how it should work. The example above shows the sort of thing we're looking for and what should be included. If there are no objections, I'm going to add this template to all the NPC pages (or rather, RoBoT will), and then the writing can start. I'll write up some guidelines for using the template and put them on the project page along with a finalized set of instructions for content. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 13:23, 5 January 2009 (EST)

Idea on how to put the sections into the articles

After adding the unique dialogue to Ajum-Kajin it has become obvious to me that for NPCs involved in a lot of quests, each of these extra sections is going to become huge.

So before we start adding massive amounts of text to the articles, I think we should decide on how we're going to format the whole thing. My idea is that we use show/hides for each section. Example here. - Game Lord^{Talk|Contribs} 15:09, 10 January 2009 (EST)

With unique dialogue I think a little discretion will be needed: not everything is worth including. Only those lines that are interesting, funny or instructive should go on. As for those sections, if you look at Timenn's example you'll see how the layout is planned - paragraphs rather than sections. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:01, 11 January 2009 (EST)

One more for the line up

Hey, just wanted to say: count me in as well. NPCs are a core part of Oblivion (as far as I'm concerned) and this project is really needed. Just two questions pop into my mind: first, the project page says that the schedules and other information can be found in the CS. Since I'm on PC and I happen have the CS, I had a quick look but didn't find anything. So.. where exactly is that precious information?

Secondly, I just finished my lastest project, concerning stores and inns. A good part of info on the publicans and vendors is now on the store's or inn's page as well as info on the buildings. Should this information be included on the NPCs' pages or not? --SerCenKing 07:20, 23 January 2009 (EST)

Same here. I'm hopping on the bandwagon too. This project has really caught my eye. I'll try to help as much as I can. --Playjex 23:28, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Looks interesting. Alright, I'll join too. -Rycr 03:54, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Linkable Content

What will be the standard for linking things like gender, race, class, etc.? Should the all be linkified, none, or something in between? --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 02:11, 4 March 2009 (EST)

Well gender shouldn't be mentioned in the text - one of the goals was to get away from doing so. As somebody pointed out, you'd never say that "Abraham Lincoln was a male president of the...". Race and class are fair enough in a world with many examples of both, and the first examples should be linked. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 02:43, 4 March 2009 (EST)

Perfect, thanks Rpeh. --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 16:51, 4 March 2009 (EST)

The layout of the pages

So, were rolling. And it's fun. But, as I went back in time to check out the unique dialogue on some of the "older" NPCs written for this project, I noticed a lack of consistensy in the pages layout. IMO, the pages should all list the things in the same order. A prime exampel is the new page for Carandial. The intro, the schedule - the rare "break" in the schedule seperated from the normal one, followed by inventory, house description, unique dialogue and rumors at the very end. (yes, I know - it's not exactly like that right now, 'cause SerC put the dialogue too high, while I wrote this) - but I thought that was the correct order for the descriptions. And I think it would be cool, if we did all of them in the same way. For example, the page for S'rathad starts out with the Skingrad schedule, which I think might be confusing for gamers seeking information. That schedule should be split in two with the Skingrad description below the "everyday" description. And let's not forget to put a tiny space between the sections...

And for the layout itself; I noticed, that theres a different lay-out on Salmo (the baker) - here, the rumors are done in a completely different manner, but way better. Its easy on the eyes and it doesnt scare anybody off. I would suggest doing a similar thing with unique dialogue (like I tried on Carandial) - otherwise, the pages will look like explosions of text, which is not very attractive. Just look at Ambroise Canne - now, theres a bit of unique dialogue that could use some kind of layout...! Lets at least consider it?

Last, and a bit unrelated: How is one supposed to check "Rumors" in-game? I have heard more rumors than most the last couple of weeks - still, I wouldn't have a clue how to really check them in the game. Maybe this should remain unchecked and rely solely on the CS?

Keep up the good work - and remember to REPHRASE my contributions. You guys know ten times more about the game than I do - and have ten times the english skills - so I actually doesn't bother too much when I write them, because I expect you guys to rephrase them anyway. Krusty 13:02, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

I think that the point you've raisen is a good one. Sorry for my formatting of the dialogue on Carandial's page: it was just to keep the consistency with pages such as Ambroise Canne or Tumindil that you have pointed out. Personally, I don't have any problems changing the rumors and dialogue from one layout or another since I quite like both. However, I think that we should firmly decide on how to do it and before that, no more adding dialogue. If in the end we decide to change the layout, I'll have no problems reverting my Carandial edit and helping to move the junk to the new layout. As per the rephrasing, not a problem: it's good practice for me to become Patroller. XD --SerCenKing 14:24, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

I've never wanted the pages to be overly formulaic so consistency doesn't bother me. Similarly I wanted the pages to have freedom in language rather than the stilted set of stock phrases that have mainly been appearing. These are people, not robots, and I'd rather we treated them like that. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 14:27, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

Freedom in language is a-okay in my book. It's the layout itself I'm a bit worried about. I know how it's like to be new to the ES universe, and some of the complicated schedules are rather over-complicated - I mean, even I get confused over some of the schedules, and I know them by heart! Still think, it would be a good idea to make the rare "once-a-month"-trip the last thing in the schedule (instead of the first), at least from now on? Krusty 14:42, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

I wouldn't define that as a rule. Often the montly trip is the most interesting, or defining, bit of a particular NPC. Generally you want the more important stuff higher in the article. --Timenn < talk > 10:56, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

Yay Timenn! Good to see you again - I was getting worried! In this specific case I put the one-off trip first because it's easier to say "Except when doing the thing I just told you about..." for the next section. Carandial's schedule is a bit more detailed so I put it second.

There's something else to bear in mind here. Adding a scheduleChecked tag to the template isn't the end of the story. Eventually, NPCs will get to the point where they have the "COMPLETE" category, and that's a good place to do a final check before removing the template and calling that NPC done. Even then, if somebody comes across the page and finds it confusing then can always rewrite it or ask for clarification on the talk page.

The difficult bit of the project is getting the details onto the site, and I'd prefer we concentrate on that before worrying about stylistic perfection. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 11:14, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

As a matter of fact, I think youre right - our task right now is to get all the (right) information in there, so lets focus on that. Btw, I asked another question above (about how to check "Rumors") - any suggestions on that problem? Krusty 11:18, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

I don't think there's any way of doing those. They're random, so you'd have to hang about for a long time to overhear them. It's going to be a case of another CS user confirming that the rumors do indeed belong to the specified NPC, and that none have been missed. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 11:40, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

When signing the tag

Allright, I think at this point that it is nessecary, that we agree to sign the tag with either (in-game) or (CS). Otherwise, we can end up in a terrible mess later on, as there's no way of knowing who wrote what - and by what reference. Please sign here, if you agree. Krusty 15:45, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

I use a mixture of CS and in-game when writing schedules so that really doesn't work. It's also unnecessary since there will be at least two other checks after somebody has written something so whether it's in-game or in-CS, the more obvious mistakes should be spotted. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 01:57, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

I see your point. But to avoid that a schedule is written from the CS and then checked by another person via the CS (or the other way round), I think I'll keep signing my contributions with the small In-game-note. And I hope, that other "in-gamers" will consider the same. Krusty 02:55, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

Related Quests paragraph

Yeah yeah, it's me once again. I have repeatedly had my pages edited, and thats all good. My grammar sucks, and my vocabulary is a cry for help. But I REALLY think, that the paragraphs at the bottom of the page should be organised in the following order: 1: Related Quests 2: Notes 3: Bugs. IMHO, the "Related Quest"-paragraph is the most important part of the NPC page, and it really should be on top every time - some of the descriptions are getting quite big as we progress, so the least we can do is to put the "Quest"-thing in plain sight, where it belongs, and where the gamers/users can actually see it without having to scroll down. Krusty 10:28, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

I'm ok with that, I was just keeping consistency with Places pages, which have Notes and then Quests... But of course these are NPCs... Any specific way we want to do them? --SerCenKing 10:33, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

Well, I suggest the order, I posted above - a lot of NPC pages have that order already, and I think it works. Btw, SerC - in case, you didn't notice, here's a nice little observation for you! Krusty 11:24, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

Done! --SerCenKing 11:44, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

That order sounds fine to me. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:17, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

Ok with me as well, I'll change the ones I've done so far. --SerCenKing 10:35, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

(outdent) I think the Spells and Purchased Spell Notes sections should go at the bottom on pages where they exist. These sections are usually so long they push things like notes and bugs far too far down. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 13:16, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Couldn't agree more. And then add a link to the spell list in the NPC's intro (when the world "spell" is used), like we did on Uravasa Othrelas. I'll do that in the future! Krusty 13:28, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Update the Template?

I just did some work on Belisarius and yesterday did work on Lucien Lachance. It says when you add something to the page as per the NPC Redesign guidelines that you need to update the template. How does one do that, exactly? I mean I'm not desperately seeking credit for my work, but it'd be nice to know how to do that.

(The only day the stars will control my fate is when the sun explodes. 16:21, 30 March 2009 (EDT))

The full details of how to use the tag are on the template page itself: see this. Hope it was as helpful as it was to me! --SerCenKing 02:36, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

Do we REALLY need those "sic" tags?

So, they sometimes make a mistake at Bethesda and spell something wrong in the game - do we really need to point it out like that? Not that I'm worried about Bethesda's feelings, but the sic-tag is really ugly and destroys the layout of an otherwise perfect page. My apologies to the person who programmed it, but it shouldn't ruin the line spacing. THIS is a perfect example. That page was a beautiful piece of work until that sic-tag was added. Ambroise Canne is a nightmare. There's nothing wrong with pointing out spelling mistakes - maybe someone out there is interested, but to ruin the look of the whole page? I think it's a shame, and I think we should discuss it. Krusty 18:46, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

Yes, unfortunately we do need them. Experience has shown that if you just put the "correct" spelling, someone will change it to the in-game spelling, and them somebody will change it back. We get enough people changing the spelling even with the sic tags in place. If you can come up with a design for the sic tag that doesn't mess with the line spacing, great. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 00:23, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

I've never been happy with the way they look now, but sadly it seems we need them. Though I still have my suspicions that some people deliberately alter spellings when they see a sic tag, I think there are enough people that simply can't recognise a sic tag. I'm with Rpeh here, if you can think of a better way, you're welcome.

I do have an evil thought, how about adding protect tags to such quotes? ;) --Timenn < talk > 09:00, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

NPCs Without Schedule, House Contents, etc.

I have recently come across the page of Mankar Camoran who does not have a schedule, house content, or rumors. Why so? For he is not a NPC in which travels and you can easily interact with. I have recently readNephele's post about NPCs who come in at specific parts of the game, but what about house contents and such? Mankar does not own a house, or have a schedule, nor can you speak to him and ask about rumors. What is the correct way to do NPCs' pages such as Mankar Camoran's? Thanks. --Playjex 22:35, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

Most of the NPCs without schedules are special in some other way. For instance, Eletta's and Zahrasha's pages can be expanded with background information and perhaps information about their lives that can be (reasonably) deduced from their possessions. In Mankar Camoran's case, there may be no schedule but there's more than enough unique dialogue and possessions to make a good page. If there's no schedule, it doesn't get mentioned. Having said that, just about all NPCs have some schedule: see Adosi Serethi's page for an example. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 02:51, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Travelling NPCs

I think it's time to discuss how we deal with travelling NPCs and the way their schedules can be affected in certain ways. When a character like Oghash gra-Magul takes her trip to the Imperial City, it takes her a certain amount of time - if you follow her there, that is. On the other hand, if you wait for her at her destination, her travel time is nearly halved (as seen on her talk page). How should we deal with this? I tried to deal with it in one way on the Ulen Athram page, and included a (probably untrue) explanation in the notes section. Furthermore, if we return to Oghash, she have yet another trip on Fridas, but this time she doesn't have a "fix-point" and therefore will take exactly the time the trip takes. It was the same with Jearl and Saveri Faram. Once again, I tried to explain it in the notes, but we should probably agree on some kind of system or maybe a specific way to write these things. Any suggestions? Krusty 10:12, 26 April 2009 (EDT)

I've tried to come up with a good answer, but can't. This doesn't just affect NPCs like Oghash, Ulen and other NPCs with long journeys; to some extent it affects them all. Remember when I reverted your first edit? That was partially down to this effect. Fast travel and waiting are two effects that really screw things up.

The best idea I've had is to have a standard template, something like the OB Purchased Spell Notes and Leveled Spell Notes ones. Perhaps it would work better as a link to something like a new Oblivion:NPC_Schedule page or a Schedule section of Oblivion:NPCs?

My feeling for the described schedule is to show what would happen if you never waited or fast-traveled. If there's a better idea, I'm more than prepared to hear it. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 17:33, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

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