Skyrim talk:Speech/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Speech discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Redirect Mercantile Here?

Mercantile seems to have been effectively merged with this skill. Should we be creating redirects for skills that have been merged with other skills or have been renamed from their Oblivion version? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:14, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Huh. Nephele has already done that. Still, it's worth discussing if we should be doing this. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:15, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, since people will definitely be searching for them. elliot (talk) 17:20, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

(e/c) Yep, we seem to have had the same idea ;) My thinking was that it's the easiest way to help Oblivion players looking for information on Mercantile. And similarly, the Speechcraft redirect helps anyone who hadn't realized the skill name was tweaked. I don't think there's any downside to doing it -- unless it turns out one of the perks is named 'Mercantile' or there's some other way that Skyrim uses that name, in which case the "proper" Skyrim usage should probably take precedence over a backwards-compatibility redirect. --Nephele^Talk 17:22, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Works for me. Just wanted to make sure we had some kind of agreement on this. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:29, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Character Dialogue

I think we should decide how NPC dialogue should be handled (if it hasn't already). In Oblivion it was ok to say "When asked about Bruma Bob will say X" because most NPCs only had a line or two of unique dialogue that was usually about the city they lived in. In Skyrim though, most NPCs have several topics to discuss. Here is a suggestion:

Alvor

What can you tell me about Riverwood?:X

Can I use your forge?:Y

What do you do here?:Z

This could be in a seperate section of the NPC's page called Dialogue or something like that. Any thoughts? RIM 17:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

How massive is the average amount of dialogue? Personally I don't find fully quoting every dialogue option that useful. If it will be much stuff hiding it on a subpage or into a show/hide box might be worth considering. --Alfwyn 17:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a reason to handle it differently. We've handled complicated NPC dialogue paths before. If anything, I'm glad that I won't just have to write about an NPC's one unique greeting and topic on their city anymore. Quite honestly, I just thought we'd end up creating a Skyrim NPC Redesign Project, with the same rules and standards as the Oblivion version. I don't see why writing, "Asking Alvor what his current occupation is will have him reply by saying: "X" Asking him for information on his hometown, Riverwood, will have him reply to your query with: "Y" Asking him for permission to use his forge will have him say, "Z1", if your standing in his eyes is to low. If you are on more friendly terms with Alvor, he will instead say: "Z2"", would be a problem.

Essentially, if it isn't broken, why fix it? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:25, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's a problem either but it might be better to organise npc dialogue into a section on their page rather than have a huge block of writing,e.g:

(basic info)

Services

Dialogue

Notes

I don't really mind, it just might look better on the page rather than something like this. RIM 17:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I used to do this, and it looked rather terrible. More importantly, certain categories blend into one another quite a lot (schedule can effect what someone says, whether they offer services, what they wear, etc.). If Skyrim goes the extra mile with it's NPC complexity as I suspect, the separation will lead to articles becoming either rather redundant, or a confusing mess. The current system is what we've done for the longest time, and I don't see any practical reason to change this. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:55, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Whatever works best is fine, I was just thinking about the look of the page. If npcs have a lot of dialogue then it might be good to try and break it up just a little, maybe a single line gap or an image somewhere or something like that. Either way I don't really mind how it is handled.RIM 18:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Really complicated NPCs do get extra sections. See Oblivion:Janus Hassildor as an example. My point is, we only do this for VINPCs, the main or major characters. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 18:34, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Some NPCs have tabled dialogue, although the only current example is in a sandbox being tabled. And that looks better for much more than normal amounts of dialogue, the NPC is sheogorath. And i'd say that it looks an improvement for the VINPCs. Normal NPCs should be treated, as well, normal. Until at such point during our almost inevitable SRNPCRP we decide to change it. I will also reiterate that "if it's not broke don't fix it". With the tag line of look into the tables and try it in a preview if you think it may look better :) --Kiz ^{·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•·} 18:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Flames spell won't unequip for brawl

So I can't brawl because I can't play unarmed at all. The flames spell seems to have no way to get it off my right Hand. Even using something else and then getting rid of that item just reverts to flames instead of bare hands.68.200.239.165 13:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)otakun

Cool story brah. I like context, too. 76.26.142.108 06:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Accurate info about speech challenges?

"These Speech Challenges will be provided as options during certain dialogues, along with the percentage chance of success." I don't recall percentages being in the game. Am I correct? Vontos 09:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I removed the following text from that section ", along with the percentage chance of success. You can choose whether or not to accept the challenge, but a failed challenge cannot be retried." because it is incorrect. I also removed "(This is pretty much guaranteed success with the Khajiit race considering they have extra unarmed damage compared to other races)" as player skill, level and difficulty setting have more effect than your choice of race. Kai Heilos 00:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Free skill boost

Not really sure where to put this but if you jump from the top of Dead Valley Redoubt, the forsworn's main fortress, and land on the lower cliff level, use become ethereal to survive, a ghost of a bard will appear and tell you that it has been a long time since anybody survived the jump. After that he will vanish and your speech skill will increase.RIM 14:16, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Nice info. I never even thought to use become ethereal to survive long falls. — Unsigned comment by 24.33.141.151 (talk) at 02:45 on 25 November 2011

Training Prices

I noticed that the price for training speech from the novice trainer was your skill level X10, plus 50. For instance if your level was 45, the cost would be 500. However when that trainer could not teach me anymore, I went to the bard's college to use the trainer there, only to find out the cost had jumped to 1800 something. I thought that maybe it was because I wasn't a member of the college, so I finished that whole questline, but the price stayed the same.

Is this common for all trainers? I tried looking for info on training skills, but the wiki only lists skill trainers and their locations, and doesn't mention price. 24.33.141.151 02:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

From 51 onwards the cost of training approximately triples.--80.5.42.39 18:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Brawling with Ebony Mail

Its very easy to win a brawl while wearing ebony mail, is this intended?, as it is not technically using your fists (some of the time, anyway) --Killerkaiman 19:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Well when I'm wearing the Ebony Mail and initiate a brawl, it counts as an assault and people around me attack. 92.226.90.64 09:29, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Investor

A note should be added that Investor only allows investing in certain shopkeepers, not all merchants. I thought I'd missed something when I talked to the first merchant and wasn't allowed to invest.— Unsigned comment by 99.73.224.32 (talk) at 21:13 on 26 November 2011

console commands

If you want to increase your speech skill using console, you must use "speechcraft" as actor value, NOT "speech". — Unsigned comment by 188.64.216.3 (talk) at 15:06 on 2 December 2011

That's not the only attribute that has a different name. A lot of skills and character values are called differently. Archery is Marksman, for example. There's a complete list here you know... http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes5Mod:Actor_Value_Indices — Unsigned comment by 109.99.107.212 (talk) at 13:55 on 3 December 2011

Actually, archery and speech skills are the only skills, that uses different actor names, if im not mistaken. That is was kinda confusing, because im used "skill" page to confirm skillnames for console. And use google to check the real actor values, because Actor_Value_Indices is not (try to type actor value in searchbox without underscore) obvious page name to search for me. I think it deserves to be mentioned in this page, that speech IS NOT REAL, as an archery, because SPEECHCRAFT and MARKSMAN is not the skills true Nord approves, even if this Nord tries to cheat! YOU NEVER GET TO SOVNGARDE, WHEN YOUR SPEECH AND ARCHERY SKILLS ARE MAXED, BRITON! — Unsigned comment by 188.64.216.3 (talk) at 13:36 on 8 December 2011

Probably due to their base skill effects being taking from Oblivion, where they were named Speechcraft and Marksman. The core engine is still Gamebyro. Torinir 23:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Give "Possible investments" it's own page?

This list will eventually get a lot bigger, I think. Maybe give it its own page? RayRodrique 23:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The information is already all provided at Merchants, so I don't see why a redundant list is even needed. Plus, the list on the Merchants list is complete -- it was taken from the game data. Therefore, I've deleted the section and replaced it with a link to the Merchants page. --Nephele^Talk 05:08, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

'Easy Speech Skill Improvement' seems to be missing now.

Should we revive it or remove the in-item reference to it? Metricjester 07:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

If it's still working post-patch 3, I'd say yes, because it's a very useful glitch for people in a rush - I recall selling arrows one-by-one in Oblivion... not eager to go through that again. Malko050987 15:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Another, slightly less degenerate option is to raise your Barter to the max with enchantments and/or potions, then repeatedly buy and sell a valuable item.

With maxed out Barter, you only lose about 10% of the item's max value per transaction, and that money goes into the merchant's pool, which enables you to do this with increasingly more valuable items.

By the end, I was buying and selling a 14,000 Septim potion while gaining one level of Speech per transaction until I hit 100.

Afterward, I just sold him several of items I was carrying to sell until he was back at 0 gold and I was at 100 Speechcraft. It was handy both for levelling and selling items that would normally be out of their price range.

If you have enough money, you don't even have to fortify your Barter. 209.66.120.3 00:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Reading books

Could someone clarify this for me? Does reading general books increase skill, or is this article referring to skill books? 65.92.81.32 15:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

General books do not effect anything - only books specifically listed as Skill Books increase your skills 75.58.154.182 08:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Quick improvement of speech when being thives guild master

If you made it to the master of the thieves guild you get the option to persuade guards to oversee a crime in those cities where the thieves guild is active. You can use this to improve the speech skill quickly in the following way. Commit a little crime (like pickpocketing from a guard) to get a small bounty. Now there will be a guard approaching you and you have to persuade him to oversee the crime. This will increase the speech skill. Now go to other guards and speak to them. They will recognize you as a wanted man and you repeatedly persuade them to oversee your crime. Be carefull not to meet the same guard twice, since this will work only one time per guard. However if you accidentally meet one guard twice you can always pay half of your bounty (another feature coming from being thieves guild master) and have to go back to step 1 (comitting a small crime). With this method I needed around 4-5 guards to improve my speech skill one level when it was already on level 90+. You might wanna do this by night, when more guards are on the streets. — Unsigned comment by 79.240.167.186 (talk) at 22:26 on 16 December 2011

Selling items when the merchant has 0 gold

I always thought that you don't get experience if you "sell" things to a merchant with 0 gold, but I just sold several expensive potions and I leveled up (more than once). Am I the only one that thought this? 74.229.178.150 05:17, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I also thought you didn't level if the merchant had 0 gold, but I sold a potion of some ridiculously high value (2+ million) that I created through the Fortify Restoration exploit to a merchant with about 500 gold and it instantly took me from level 20 speech to 100 speech. Haven't been able to verify if the merchant needs to have at least some gold for this to work. --Zapatodefuego 05:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Merchant doesn't need any money. — Unsigned comment by 87.177.190.22 (talk) at 02:32 on 24 December 2011

I'm sure they'll eventually cap that exploit in a patch. Then against is a single player RPG, you're only effecting your own experience if you use such exploits, so maybe not. — Unsigned comment by Artemis Enterei (talk • contribs) at 08:53 on 23 December 2011

I personally hope they leave it be. If players want to break their games with godlike enchantments, let them. PC players already have all that power and more- why not let us lowly console players break the game a bit, too?

Besides- there are *much* more important fixes to be made, like the numerous bugs that break quests and ruin days. I'll never be able to complete the Elemental Fury Shout or the "Repairing the Phial" quest thanks to bugs,

so my ring which fortifies Health and Mana 500,000,000 each and my bow which paralyzes for five minutes are decent consolation prizes :-P 209.66.120.3 00:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Speech Questions

1.Does this skill level based on quantity of items or transaction values? 2.Does wearing a +20% improved prices necklaces help you to level speech faster? 3.Has anyone ever filled this tree that seems completely useless? (the whole tree seems even less useful than the related skills in Oblivion) ^.^ — Unsigned comment by 120.38.84.45 (talk) at 10:27 on 26 December 2011

Speech Symbol

Isnt the symbol of speech skill in Skyrim, a coin purse not two heads? --Joren Vantius 06:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Domt worry Ive only just relised what it is.--Joren Vantius 06:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation or New Page Needed?

A "Go" search for "fence" directs here at the speech perk, however users will often be looking for basic information (definition), and a list of fences in the game, both located at Skyrim:Thieves_Guild_(faction)#Fences, and probably for information located at Skyrim:Thieves_Guild_(faction)#Advantages and Skyrim:Thieves_Guild_(faction)#Fences. Jreynolds2 17:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Language

In the Skill Increases section of the Speech page, it says, "now you sell them all the crap you have stored up" and "all those crap items were just taking up space anyway." Sorry to steal anyone's fun, but surely there are better, more appropriate descriptives . . . "junk" to name just one.71.224.13.163 16:31, 4 January 2012 (UTC)Marcus

Persuation and Intimidation

Is the success based on a % of chance like in pickpocket or is a threshold you simply either pass or not? I tried multiple times but never seem to succeed if once failed at same speech level. Having a % chance and succeeding after repeated attempts I admit won't make sense without a penalty involved. But then there's the question are the perks or enchantments needed at 100 skill like is there any threshold that can't be beaten at 100? Luke — Unsigned comment by 81.196.151.13 (talk) at 14:49 on 17 January 2012

It's a threshold. If you've tried and failed, you'll be able to tell if you'll pass the test later after gaining more skill because the dialog option will be white instead of grey, indicating a response from the NPC that you haven't heard yet. -Vardis 03:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This is interesting and useful. Once reading it, I realize that that is how it works, but I was not consciously aware of it before. Move this info onto the main page? --Jreynolds2^{Talk E-mail} 07:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Well I am level 53 with 100 speech and I cannot intimidate Dirge, is there a reason for this? 217.137.157.197 19:05, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason is because you can't. The only success is to persaude him that his name is great. The Silencer speaks^Talk 19:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) The page doesn't think so because it says he can be intimidated. So its either a bug or false info 217.137.157.197 19:23, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean the name or the quest info? Technically you "suceed" when you intimidate him about his name, but all you succeed in doing is annoying him. The Silencer speaks^Talk 19:31, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

This is from the dirge page: He'll also offer a bottle if you're intimidating enough: "No, no. Sorry if I sounded so mean there. My brother always said I have a big mouth. Here, have one on me." If you fail, however, he'll send you off by growling: "Yeah, my problem is I'm too tired to punch your face in."

But I have a speech skill of 100 and I am level 53, so I should be able to intimidate him. So it is either a bug or the page has false information. Mr.Scryer.

Okay. A look on the CS shows the dialogue as existing, though I myself have never experienced it. It may be a bug, or the paramaters for it to work are hard to reach. I'll get someone to take a closer look. The Silencer speaks^Talk 19:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll now wait until more info about it is put here or that page. 217.137.157.197 19:55, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

brawl

I've moved this from the article, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the skill but was given more space than all the actual Speech options combined. — Unsigned comment by 24.180.45.63 (talk) at 09:39 on 31 January 2012

• Brawl: fist-fight with person for information, or just because you were challenged (there will be a 100 Septim bet). Fist-fights will not result in death and the guards will not interfere (as long as you only hit the brawling opponent). Brawls generally take place in inns, where some drunk NPC will bet (usually) 100 Septims and assure you that he can take you down. Brawling is also present outside of inns, for example, in some quests such as The Forsworn Conspiracy, where the player has no choice but to enter the brawl. You can still use potions, foods and Restoration magic during a brawl. Note that some enchanted items, like Boethia's Ebony Mail radiate a damage-per-second effect that will count as an assault, as well as Restoration spells used on NPC's such as the Healing Hands spell, effectively ending the 'friendly' nature of the brawl.

Unfortunately Skyrim:Brawl redirects here, so that redirect is really weird now. -- MartinS 94.255.233.233 22:20, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I was looking for information on Skyrim's brawl mechanic and was very confused why I was lead to the speech skill, but there was absolutely nothing on the page about brawling. The information needs to be somewhere and if speech does in fact affect brawling, it should remain on the speech page. If not, it should be moved somewhere else, perhaps to combat. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Skyrim's mechanics to make that call. In any case, the redirect should be fixed. Alwaysburning 08:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think speech affects brawling. The only thing that really has an impact on brawling is being a khajiit(for the claws effect), having the heavy armor perk that makes guantlets do damage and enchanted items. I think it sholud be on the combat page but maybe a link and note should be made on the speech page? RIM 08:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I believe that Brawl and its mechanics should have its own page or at least its own section under combat. Its such a juicy fun part of Skyrim that needs its space.--J'ZhirrthePriest 07:22, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I just remade the redirect to a page of its own with the text from above. -- MartinS 94.255.233.233 21:38, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

(←) Would Combat be a better page to put it on? There's not really enough information for brawling to have its own page... Vely^{►Talk►Email} 21:42, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Master Trader & Fences

Does the Master Trader perk also apply to fences ? --Dradge 12:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Apparently not. Edit: Correction... apparently so. --24.149.111.41 06:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Umm, not sure why the previous editor said "apparently not". In the game data, the master trader bonus is listed for every fence, and therefore every fence's page says "1000-4000 (+1000 Master Trader)" under "Gold" (see, for example, Tonilia). --Nephele^Talk 08:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Speechcraft vs. Barter vs. Speech

I have been using an Amulet of Zenithar whenever I trade with a merchant and now I've found an Amulet of Dibella. Zenithar's seems to give a 'barter' bonus, whereas Dibella's gives a 'speechcraft/persuasion' bonus. I'm pretty sure both persuasion skills and mercantile skills are under the Speech skill now, so will Dibella's Amulet only help with persuading people in chat or will it also give a mercantile bonus? Bushwhacker 10:16, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

It will give you a very small bonus. If you look at the price of something expensive like a grand soul gem and then put the necklace on and check the price again, you will see a small decrease in the price. The Amulet of Zenithar is certainly the better choice, however, if you have both. GrogGrogGrog 21:54, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

1000 gold but no master trader perk

I have a speech skill of about 56 and suddenly, all the merchants have 1000 gold (not including fences). Has anyone experienced this also? — Unsigned comment by 130.157.33.52 (talk) at 05:50 on 9 March 2012

Investing multiple times

It is occasionally possible to invest in a merchant multiple times, giving them an exorbitant amount of gold with which to buy. I can't confirm what allows this. I've invested multiple times in Ulfberth War-Bear and also Angeline Morrard. Perhaps this should be mentioned in the Bugs section? Beez 07:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

As long as you've been able to reproduce it, you can add it to the bugs section. If someone else can reproduce it as well, so much the better! – Robin Hood↝talk 07:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I can confirm that I've encountered this multiple times on PS3 with Angeline Morrad. No idea what causes it, though. Kitkat ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 11:49, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Kitkat! I've added it to the page and marked it as confirmed. – Robin Hood↝talk 19:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Gaining XP

Considering the statement "if you trade multiple units of an item in one transaction, you will only gain experience equivalent to trading a single unit", can we (meaning 'I') assume that selling a batch of 100 iron ore for 300 gold yields fewer XP than selling a single weapon at 300g? Just looking for clarification - thanks. 76.185.41.201 21:16, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

You've understood correctly. – Robin Hood↝talk 03:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

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