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Skyrim talk:Leveling/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Leveling discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Perk Count

I believe the perk count is 251 — Unsigned comment by 107.9.3.233 (talk) at 00:56 on 5 November 2011

Maximum Level

Everything written in this section at the moment totally contradicts itself. 1 perk per level is correct, but max level of 70 and then 90 perks while also saying that one could unlock almost all perks even though there is 250(+) of them. Needs facts and rewriting.

And skill point math. 81.233.217.129 07:59, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be possible to get all perks by having your skills reduced through going to jail?
No, because only your skills decrease, not your actual level. Not to mention, they skills aren't reduced past their current level, the only thing you can lose is progress towards your next level for that skill.

The reason for this is because if you unlocked a perk at say, 50 Destruction, and then lost a level of Destruction in jail. It's also to prevent exploiting/super character building. I already know I'm just NOT going to be crafting a lot with this character. I won't be maxing out Sneak [I find the non-multiplier skills sort of useless].

I think the Theorethical Level Cap is about 150. This is because there are 18 Skill with 1800 possible skill points. Each player starts with 305 skill points, thus 1495 skills points are possible to earn, resulting in 149 Level-Ups. Please correct me, if I am wrong.

No, 1495 skullup are not resulting in 149 Level-Ups: there are ~5 skill/level for-low level pers and 20+ skill/level for high-level (50+) pers. Developers have stated that the total number of available skills in the game is not enough for a hero level 71.

Actual levelcup is about 70-80, it's clear. But you will gain no perks past 50 lvl (by the official announcement of Todd Hovard) so explain me the number of around 80 perk points. Where did you get it? Unless you count perk points being qiven for quest completion if such a thing exists

I was still getting perk points long after 50, myself.-Zydrate[][] 17:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Not true about getting more perks after level 50, you do get more perks. The fact that one can reach all skill levels of 100 means you can get 80 perks . Also, you still can get achievements using the "player.advskill" command in the console as a means of leveling and gaining perks. Using the .setav/.forceav will result in not getting achievements, because the game would not be calculating advances in skills normally otherwise. Also, it is possible to reach level 251 (which I think is the max) and get all skills to level 100 and getting all perks unlocked using the command console (or much easier, a script). For example, you use the "player.advskill <skillname> number. Once you reach a skill level of 100, use the .setav <skillname> and set it back to 1, the use the ".advskill" command again. Keep in mind that the number you use in the ".advskill" command doesn't mean you will advance said skill to that level, it is only applying points you would normally gain using a certain skill. For example, if it takes 50 swings (speculating here as an example) of a one-handed weapon to gain one skill advance in "One-Handed", when you start off at level 1. Going to level two may take 75 swings. I haven't run the numbers at all, but I know it is incremental that way when I used scripts. Tommy6860 12:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Level-cap is 81 I believe. I used the Oghma Infinium exploit to maximise all my skills to 100 and it stopped at Level 81 (not sure if that is because of the exploit though). Kept getting a perk every level after 50, so yeah there are 80 perks. Can't provide picture evidence as it is on my xbox. --Rynozeros 04:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Number of skill point gains for each level

Anyone have this info? I haven't been keeping track, but at level 30, I do know level gains take more skill points per level than, say, level 10. Once the CK comes out though, I do plan to do some math to figure this out. Jimhsu 05:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I played around with the console (player.setlevel, .setav, and .incpcs) to see how many skill increases you need at particular levels. What I found is that a skill increase from 99 to 100 at level 1 advances you one full level. At level 5, you need two increases from 99 to 100 to advance a level, at level 9 you need 3, etc. (i.e. the ratio halves every 4 levels). Lower skill levels behave linearly: while an increase from 99 to 100 is one level increase at level one, 9 to 10 gives you 10%. Thence the following formula:
skill reached / 100 / ( 1 + ((current level - 1) * 0.25 )) = levels earned; (1 = one level increase).
I cross checked this with some random numbers and it seems to work (i.e., at level 33, it takes 18 increases from 49 to 50 to reach level 34).
Could somebody confirm the formula, before we edit the main page? (I am new to the wiki as a contributor, just signed up for this; also I am no mathematician so maybe the formula could be expressed more elegantly ;-) ). Also, I don't know if anything changes past the supposed "soft cap" around level 50. Sebxian 21:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
As I just noticed, the essentially same formula was posted below earlier, when I was busy doing my own research (level cap section)... Sebxian 21:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
You need to clarify what you mean by "skillups" 99-100 seems to be some set in stone number set you are using, when you should just factor in the multiple from the outset. Leveling works on when one gains a skill. If you advance one skill, you didn't necessarily advance one level as well when one goes into the sub-menu to use the attribute(s), which using those attributes levels up the player. Perks are different(obviously). The system works on how much one uses a skill. At starting the game at level 1, the player may need to swing his one-handed sword 100 times (unsure yet if the player actually has to hit something but I think the player does) to gain a skill increase in "One-Handed". After that it is incremental in how many more uses/hits the player needs to achieve this. One method is to test the console command at level one having not used any skills at all. Having said this, you could actually raise your skill level three times and still not have enough to get attribute points to use to level up. I tested fresh at level 1 by adding to the Archery skill. First time I added 43 points, next 48, then 54 and though I moved from level 15 to 18 in Archery, I still didn't get attribute points to level up with. I finally got to level 22 and a perk and a level up. I will do the math later (if I can :D) Tommy6860 12:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
"skillups" = skill increases, e.g. Archery is raised from 15 to 16 (or Block from 99-100, as in the example above. Obviously, this would not naturally happen at level 1. I set the skill to 99 with the setav command, then advanced it by one with incpcs -- only the latter is registered by the game as a skill increase -- and I used such extreme numbers only to find the formula).
Edited above to "skill increase", which hopefully is clearer. What it actually takes to advance a skill is not measured in above, but only how much a skill increase advances you toward the next nevel.
For advancing archery from 15 to 16 at level 1, as you did, the formula would look like this:
16 / 100 / ( 1 + ((1 - 1) * 0.25 )) = 0.16; which makes it contribute 16% to the next levelup.
Archery to 17 is 17%, etc..
Since 16+17+18+19+20+21 is 111%, according to my formula, you should have leveled up and gained a perk when you reached 21 in Archery. If that only happened at skill 22, I am missing something.
Since I do not measure skill advancement from using the skill, but only what happens when it is increased by 1, perks and standing stones should not matter to the formula as I understand the mechanics. I hope this is somewhat clearer? Sebxian 10:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Alteration and Restoration

Does anyone know precisely when you get xp for the armor spells (e.g. Oakflesh), or for the Ward spells? When those damage shields mitigate damage? Do you get more xp for mitigating more damage, or is it per hit? As far as I can tell, they don't give any xp out of combat, and given the somewhat chaotic nature of combat, I'm having trouble nailing down how xp is awarded. 68.74.68.206 20:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to your question, but I can tell you that the best way to train alteration is by using the detect life spell. Just stand out in the middle of a city and keep casting it on both hands (not dual cast) until your magicka completely drains. Rinse and repeat.
Oh I totally agree. I already do this. But, I'm finding that my Restoration (and Destruction) are having trouble keeping up with those skills I can spam (Illusion and Alteration) 68.74.74.231 20:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Restoration spells only increase when you actually use them, for example healing spells will only give you xp if restoring health, not if you just cast them when you don't need them.RIM 21:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Best way to train restoration is get the repel/turn undead spells and find yourself a Draugr. With magicka regeneration items on you should get it back faster then the effect wears off.
I've found the best way to train Restoration was to cast Equilibrium (drains health in exchange for magicka) in one hand and cast Close Wounds (heals for 100 health points) in the other. Obviously, casting Equilibrium replenishes magicka lost through healing while giving you a reason to heal yourself by draining health. Note, however, Equilibrium does not seem to level the Alteration skill. — Unsigned comment by 70.39.25.206 (talk)
Spamming Circle of Protection once you can purchase it will help to level Restoration. --Razorsoup 21:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Something can't be right here...

So according to this article, level increases start to happen faster and faster?

Assuming you use the same general set of skills throughout the game, skills increase linearly (same amount of work to increase @ all skill levels), and skill increases at higher levels yield greater experience than at lower levels, I don't understand how you wouldn't level exponentially. At this rate, one skill increase would level you up from 49 to 50.

Am I missing something here?

Possibly. The cost of a level increase in "Skill Experience" is growing itself. So while an increase from 49 to 50 may give you half a level at level 10, it may only be one tenth of a level at level 30. (All numbers completely made up, just the concept). --93.232.176.90 04:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Master trainers training option disappears after you hit level 50?

I hit 50, and suddenly the skald (speech) in Markarth and all the Theive's guild will not train me. No dialogue option. --77.36.50.9 14:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I seem to be able to train my magic skills perfectly fine in the college of winterhold, maybe if their skill is lower than your skill level they can't train you. also, try coming back and asking them for training at different times of the day.RIM 14:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
The alchemy chick in Whiterun does have the dialogue option, even though she is under my level. I'll try the time of the thing now. Will update in 3 mins. --77.36.50.9 14:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Edit: No, tried both 8AM-8PM, and nighttime. No go on anything in the Theive's Guild. Editedit: Also no speech training on Skald. --77.36.50.9 14:26, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Editeditedit, loaded a level 49 save, and entered the Guild. No go. Still no training dialogue. Seems something else fucked everything else up.
Are you trying to train past 90? It looks like master trainers can't be used past skill=90 in Skyrim. --NepheleTalk 16:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
It seems it was that, but the problem is that some trainers keep the line and say 'i can't train you further' while others get the line compeltely deleted, but keep saying as a greeting 'need more training?' Development fuckup. --77.36.50.9 16:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Linear skill levels

"Leveling of all skills and crafting skills is linear based on their use; casting the same spell will increase your skill at the same rate from level 15 as it will be the time you are casting it around level 95" I doubt this very much or the meaning is unclear to me... I am sure I gain Skill levels slower in two-handed now that I am SKILL level 68 in two handed. Just because the AMOUNT of XP given is the same, it doesn't mean the RATE of levelling is the same since there is more XP required (presumably) to progress to the next skill level; therefore the RATE (which is XP/LEVEL) is decreasing

Do you think the editor is actually trying to say the progression is Arithmetic as apposed Exponential?

Dungeon level and difficulty.

I understand that some dungeons are more difficult than others and also lock in first time entering which makes sense in some ways. What I don't like is that the lock in seems kinda degrading to some dungeons. If you were to enter a high level dungeon at a low level (even it is to difficult to complete) the residents remain at that level.

Do dungeons have a max level that they can be set at?

Do I have to be a certain level in order to set a dungeon at its max difficulty?


--Keh Knee 23:17, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


All creatures, people dungeons and otherwise scale with your player level. Also, look into changing the actual game difficulty if a challenge is what you're looking for.

What is up with the level 50 hard/soft cap?

There is no hard or soft cap at level 50. It is not exponentially harder to get from 49->50 as it is from 50->51. It's the same formula. People need to quit editing it back in. It's (level-1)*25+100 exp per level, where skill level=exp points (80 exp for getting level 80 smithing, etc.). The level 50 achievement is arbitrary and has no significance to leveling. — Unsigned comment by 67.205.45.142 (talk) on 22 November 2011

It's definitely looking like there's less of a difference at level 50 than it sounded like from the developer's pre-release statements. Even in terms of leveled lists, there are a few entries that appear past level 50 (the highest level to appear in a leveled list is 60), but the last significant entries are at level 53. I think there still may be some point in at least mentioning level 50 on the page, however, in that it is still a number used by the designers when creating the game -- that once you reach level 50, you should basically be able to go anywhere in the game, do any quest in the game, and get the best quality items. --NepheleTalk 17:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
I changed it back again, the game does not do anything to impose level limits at 50. If anything it is imposed by the people who only level up very few skills. If you level up all skills level 50 means nothing. It is the same as Oblivion, in that it is harder because it takes more xp and leveling all skills--Lord.Baal 01:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
That's not completely true, there is at least one significance of reaching level 50 -- the enemy level cap in the game is 50, and enemy levels are scaled to your own. In other words, if you can pretty much kill everything at level 50, it will *only get easier* afterwards, so in effect, you have beaten the game at its fullest. Ancient dragons at 50 are the same as ancient dragons at 81. If I am wrong at all here, please do let me know. Masterchip27 07:43, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

A lot of people are reporting reaching level 50 having an effect on your levelling, but I've seen the formulae (ie. An additional (current level +3) * 25 xp to gain each new level), tested them and they seem to be correct. If this is the case then while the total amount to gain levels post 50 is indeed higher, no more so than it is higher for any other level.

Unless post level 50 the game reduces the rate at which you gain individual skill experience. This would allow the game to stay true to the formula and would also prevent people who are doing their tests purely on the console from noticing. Dargov 11/28/11

Effects Of leveling Section.

Needs to be clarified. The method given may confuse some into thinking they can max their skills to 100 while remaining below level 50, "after" going into the submenu. The trick you mean is, once you reach a level under 50 using all of the attributes to get to that level, just do not go back into the submenu to level anymore even though you keep gaining skill advances (levels). While I understand what it meant, my wife got confused and did the opposite way. Fortunately for her, she saved the game before going over level 50. :D

Destruction Leveling Question

Does anyone know, for the Destruction rune leveling, if you can trigger the rune yourself and still have it count for leveling? 72.25.58.205 01:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Equations:

Going from xp to next level = 25*(level-1)+100:

  • This can be simplified to 25*(level+3)
  • Using simultaneous equations to find coefficients of the quadratic gives us:
    • Minimum experience for a level = 12.5*level*level + 62.5*level - 75
  • The inverse of this (finding your level from number of experience points) is:
    • level = -2.5+(0.1*sqrt(8*xp+1225))

I hope other people find these useful too --86.132.69.75 16:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I think I should also just clarify. Every time you gain a skill level, you gain experience to your total level equal to the level you have just reached in the skill. So if I levelled from 98 to 99 in smithing, I would gain 99 experience towards my total level. All these equations are to do with this type of experience point and your total level, not skill levels. --86.132.69.75 16:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Very helpful. So if you level your race primary skill (that start at skill level 25) to 100, and level no other skill, you would gain 26+27+...+99+100=4725 level exp. And 4725 total level exp would give you -2,5+(0,1*sqrt(8*4725+1225) = level 17,25. A skill that you don't have any race mod for (start at skill level 15) would give you a total of 4930 level exp, or level 17,67. Both of them together would net you 9655 level exp, or level 25,51. Ponder the possiblity to beat the game while staying at low levels; using only one, or max two, skill(s) (such as nothing but Sneak - or maybe Sneak + Illusion). --X 192.36.187.189 10:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Extended Level Cap

I noticed that you can level up faster if you don't take level-ups after level 50 until you get to 100 in every skill. Does this also mean that the level cap will be higher? Babytoke 04:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Given the formula for converting experience into levels above, I do not see how this could possibly be true without being massively exploitable. Eg. if it takes 100 exp to reach level 2, +125 for level 3, +150 for level 4…. Up to +325 to reach level 11 (for a total of 2125 to reach level 11) if you are saying staying at level one keeps you exp required per level at the level 1 levels, the player would gain 21 levels where they should be gaining 10.
Extrapolate this to +20 levels and this explodes to +67 levels and perks gained, and the pattern continues beyond this.
The second reason I question the validity of this claim is the way Skyrim handles scaling. If the game uses only your applied levels, this would mean you can attain 100 in your skills and still have the game difficulty set to level 1.
Could the person who has claimed saving your levels grants faster levelling give some figures to back this up? At this point in time it seems like gamer superstition, and I'm a little disappointed to see people making claims like this without backing up their claims with some numbers. Dargov 11/28/11
It may appear that you are gaining a character level faster because you have also started to train less used skills. Suppose you are at 30 Archery, 95 One-handed. Because you have progressed far into the game, and because your enemies are more difficult, you will be getting more Archery XP than previously, and therefore it will probably feel like the game is going faster! This is independent of whether you save points or not. Basically, what I recommend for complete leveling (for people who wish to not use loopholes) is "maxing" your specialization, and then hitting all the highest level creatures and dungeons (dungeons you visited more recently will contain tougher enemies). Now, whenever you use a attack skill, it'll level up a lot faster! (Try shooting a fireball at a giant vs. shooting a fireball at a skeever.) We're still waiting on confirmation about exactly how skill leveling works though, afaik. Masterchip27 07:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Trainers unavailable when multiple level-ups occur

Should there be a note on this? To train via trainers each level, care is required: if you are due two (or more) level-ups, they are forcibly leveled sequentially during a single visit to the Skills section, thereby missing the opportunity for trainers entirely. Seems notable... or did I just always miss a cancel button somewhere?

Testing whether or not going past level 50 effects skill gains.

A lot of people are reporting reaching level 50 having an effect on your levelling, but I've seen the formulae (ie. An additional (current level +3) * 25 xp to gain each new level), tested them and they seem to be correct. If this is the case then while the total amount to gain levels post 50 is indeed higher, no more so than it is higher for any other level.

Unless post level 50 the game reduces the rate at which you gain individual skill experience. This would allow the game to stay true to the formula and would also prevent people who are doing their tests on the console from noticing.

Since I think the skill points per level formula is fairly established, I would propose the following test to see whether or not players benefit from saving level ups and avoid going past Experience level 50 until all skills are maxed.

1.Take a level 1 character with no racial bonus to Smithing. (The test would work with any skill, however calculating the amount of work required to level smithing is comparatively easy as we can look at the number of daggers created. Doing the same test with One-handed would rely on factors such as swing speed, weapon and the test manually counting the number of swings)

2. Proceed through the early stage of the game to Riverwood and save the game.

3. Work on Smithing by creating Iron Daggers and establish how many Iron Daggers need to be created in order to raise the characters Smithing by 10 points to 25.

4. Reload the game to the point where you arrived at the blacksmiths and use the console to raise the character level to 51 by adding to any skill other than Smithing. (If the formulas we are using are correct this requires 35,625 skill exp, increasing seven skills from 15 to 100 and one skill from 15 to 50. It's worth noting comes very close to proving the formula we are currently using to calculate level gain from skill ups)

5. Now level up Smithing with Iron Daggers again, creating the same number of daggers as you did previously to raise your skill to 25.

If the same number of Iron Daggers increases your Smithing to 25 there is no change in the rate that you gain skill experience after going past experience level 50.

I apologise for writing this rather than doing it myself, however this does help guarantee the test is done fairly and is repeatable, and that will in turn help other editors critique the test as necessary. Good scientific method ;)

Dargov 29/11/11

New Overhaul 11/30/11

I clarified & corrected a large number of things in the Introduction and Gaining Levels section. Some corrections were made for clarity, and some deletions were made to update incorrect information. Major changes: (1) Differentiated between gaining experience in a skill, and gaining experience towards a general character level-up (2) Corrected & clarified the incorrect claim that "Leveling of all skills and crafting skills is linear based on their use" (3) Removed "This system favors specialization if you want to level up quickly, however generalized characters will have more total skill points at the same level and such might find navigating advanced areas easier"

Regarding (3) if it were ALWAYS true "specialization = fastest level-up" then using EVERY skill a few times, say X, at the very beginning of the game would yield less level-ups than using a SINGLE skill X * 21 times.

Consider XP required to level up your character: Level 2: 100 Level 3: 125 Level 4: 150 Level 5: 175

So to get to level 5 it takes (100 + 125 + 150 + 175) = 550 XP. Training ONLY one skill from 15 to level 36 gives you (15 + 16 + ... + 34 + 35) = 525 XP. Training every skill two levels from 15 to 17 gives you (15 + 16)*21 = 651 XP.

I'd say that training every skill two levels from 15 to 17 would require a lot less actions (I'd say most can go from 15 to 17 by using them in a general area less than 10 times) than training a single skill from 15 to 36, especially if a character is stuck in the same area with the same weapons and enemies.

In other words, if you play the game slow and just stay in the same area hunting low-level creatures, leveling will probably go faster for you if you practice all your skills, rather than just one, in the beginning of the game. It all depends on how you play the game, considering some skills are easier to level than others, with some areas yielding more XP than others, and the harder difficulties requiring you harmonize some skills together, and others not so much.

Further "generalized characters" may also find the game extremely hard if they don't choose their perks wisely!

Let me know if there is any disagreement -- I feel that all the changes I made were necessary and pretty straightforward apart from the above mentioned one. Masterchip27 01:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, in theory, if it wasn't for the fact that some skills level [much] faster than others. For example, if you use nothing but sneak attacks to kill every single opponent then you will have a total sneak skill of 45-55 (and gained 1-2 skill levels of one hand weapons) already by the time you return the golden claw. It take many dungeons and many opponents to reach the same skill level if you use, for example, destruction magic.
The "fastest" way to level your character level (*why* you would want to do that is another question) is probably to exploit skills that you can level very fast and then focus to level them up to 100. Spam Soul Trap dead people + wait one hour when you run out of magicka, fast travel between blacksmiths to buy iron to mass produce iron daggers/leather bracers etc. --X 192.36.187.189 10:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Is there any advantage to holding at say, level 15 and practicing as many skills as you can? Finding that at level 40 its slow going since I cant get many perks now. I can practice 1 hand, which I ignored completely, but since perks slow way down (as levels come much slower), I'm stuck with a pretty low powered 1 hand attack.

Weapon Leveling

Currently the text reads "Weapon type and quality appear to affect experience gained for the One-Handed and Two-Handed skills." but the data provided in the subsequent paragraph doesn't really support that supposition. The higher the damage of the weapon used, the less strikes necessary. That seems to imply that damage dealt is related to experience gained, which is a lot more straightforward than having the game check your weapon type and quality. --70.50.237.250 21:45, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, and I am only guessing, it is weapon SPEED that has something to do with it. Though, I would not doubt that in this case, it was damage dealt with one-hand that caused the experience. If someone could run specific numbers, that would make things wonderful, but that would require a very controlled test and access to specific data. --DaedalusMachina 07:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Trust me its not weapon damage. I've used the restoration potion glitch and my weapons deal 2billion damage and they are not even at 80 yet.-Lizard

Skill XP needed for Skill up

I did a bit (ok, a lot) of research and deduced the progression of skill XP needed for a skill-up as a function of skill level. First I tested to see if there was a dependence between character level and skill xp needed for a skill-up, there isn't. That isn't to say that the amount of XP you are rewarded changes based on your level (I haven't tested this yet), but the actual amount of XP needed is invariant. Next I tested how much skill xp is needed to go from one level to the next using the advskill console command and choosing my increments carefully to avoid overshooting the XP needed for a skill-up. I did this for skill level 15-100 for several skills to determine the progression. It is quadratic. Satisfied that I could achieve reasonable accuracy, I tested between 10-20 skill level gains for each of the skills. Next, I ran a regression line through the data points and chose "reasonable" values for the coefficients.

Some key points:

  • Skill XP needed for skill-up is quadratic.
  • The coefficients are different for every skill
  • Skill XP need not be an integer. The actual values for XP needed for each level are actually non-integers. Who knows why the heck why.

I will attempt to create a table with the relevant values that is presentable, feel free to edit it if you have a nicer way to package it.

Here is my Excel spreadsheet with all the data I collected, along with derived quadratic regression lines [1] Userjjb 23:12, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

So, what you've done is determine the literal learning curve of each skill? I looked at your spreadsheet, but there were a few things that weren't labeled, so I wasn't certain what exactly I was looking at. Brings questions (not necessarily for you):
  • Does each skill contribute equally to Char-Up at equal skill levels? (ie: Does Block 20->21 contribute equal to Speech 20->21)
  • Invariable, non-integer skill XP? That sounds more difficult than it'd have to be. How did you find that it was non-integer? --DaedalusMachina 07:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
The excel sheet certainly isn't user friendly, I linked it more for proof than anything lest people just think I'm making this stuff up. I'd be happy to answer any questions or further annotate it if necessary.
How much XP skill-ups give for character XP has already been discussed on this talk page here and here. It is also in the main article here. It's very simple, you get character XP equal to the level of the newly raised skill regardless of what skill it is
The required amount to level a skill is indeed non-integer (likely a float). Choose an un-leveled skill and see what integer value makes advskill level it to the next level, say 85 xp. 84 xp will not level it, but if you increment in fractional pieces you can more and more precisely determine the actual number. So say 84.6 will level it, you then increment by .01 and find that actually 84.57 is closer, and then 84.568, and then etc... I'm not sure why they made it so complex, but I suspect that they wanted to be able to pull raw values from actions (say the worth of the item sold for speech, or the amount of damage blocked for the block skill, or the value of the item enchanted/disenchanted etc) and simply keep a running tally. Userjjb 09:06, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

After seeing the edit by 84.152.245.172 about "Gamesetting: fSkillUseCurve=1.95" I realized that this would explain why the quadratic equations for the skills are so seemingly random; they are actually power functions! I'm in the process of revamping my calcs and switching the tables over once I have redone things. I couldn't find anyway to directly verify this fskillusecurve variable and a google search only yields a result of it being mentioned in the comments of a leveling speed mod. Anyone know how I might directly observe these variables since the developer tools haven't been released yet?Userjjb 02:11, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I have performed the requisite regression analysis and arrived at "pretty good" derived values for the revised skill xp formula using the same data as before. I can provide anyone interested in performing similar optimization calculations with my C++ source that I used to calculate the optimized coefficients. I am quite pleased at how much simpler and cleaner the formula and skill values are. I will collect more precise data in the next days to hone more closely in on the true skill values but the k values should only be off by a couple percent.Userjjb 07:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Just examined Speechcraft in the following manner: player.setav speechcraft 0 / player.advskill speechcraft 1091.70538 / player.advskill speechcraft 0.00005 to get to Level 1 with no advance (0.00004 will have no effect). The values for Lvl 1-> 2 are 5.555555+ and Lvl 2 -> 3 21.465248+. The resulting formula for speechcraft is: (100/18)*Lvl^1.95 with no constant. Hope this helps for finding the values for the other skills too.

There are multiple things wrong with what you did:
  • First, using setav on a skill level doesn't automatically update the required skillXP to next level, it retains the previous needed amount from whatever level it was before. This is why going from level 0 to 1 seems to take approximately 200 times the amount of XP from 1 to 2, you didn't properly update the needed skillXP.
That's why I wrote "player.advskill speechcraft 0.00005" after filling the old progress with "player.advskill speechcraft 1091.70538" to add the amallest possible epsilon. (The progress for the next level then is nearly zero.) This is the method to clear the progress bar. If you are further advanced in speechcraft you have to adjust the first value to your needings and find your own epsilon. [Snej]
  • Second, you only collected three data points for a function that spans a range 30 times the region you surveyed. To try to extrapolate three data points 30 times past their range is statistically meaningless. This is akin to saying "I didn't get paid yesterday, today I got a paycheck from my job for 300 dollars, so tomorrow it will be $600, and by this time next year I will be a millionaire.
I'm not trying to extrapolate. I solve an equitation system in two unknowns with two datapoints. [Snej]
  • As a corollary to the second point, you clearly just made up the k and C values as a power function fit to your data doesn't come close to the values you listed.
I think they fit very well: (100/18)*1^1.95=5.555555 (100/18)*2^1.95=21.465248 (100/18)*15^1.95=1091.70538. In addition I have to say that the values you presented in your excelsheet are not all correct (1090, 1220, 1400, 1558, 1722, 1912, 2104, 2304, 2512, 2728). With "player.additem 0006851F 5" (Flawlwss Diamond -1000) "player.additem 00013984 5" (Steel Battleaxe - 100) "player.additem 0001397E 5" (Iron Dagger - 10) "player.additem 00064B41 5" (Potato - 1) I've got the following values: 1092, 1238, 1394, 1558, 1731, 1913, 2104, 2304, 2512, 2730, 2956, 3191, 3435, 3687, 3948, 4218, 4497, 4783, 5080, 5384, ... The final test was "player.advskill speechcraft 1468900" by an unexperienced Alter Ego (Lvl 15) which boosted speechcraft to 99 and another "player.advskill speechcraft 1" which lead to Level 100. So the difference between the trading value and summed up value from the presented formula is always greater than 0 and less than 1 gold. [Snej]
Just examined that your values in the table are close to mine, if you turn the sign of c. You should check this. [Snej]
  • Finally, you make no mention of the method by which you created an approximating power function, guess and check? You are looking at a two dimensional search space and need probably ~200 evaluation point to have a decent coefficient of determination. As I mentioned previously I wrote a C++ program that performs an iterative adaptive gridding technique to achieve arbitrarily optimal fits, if you'd like the source code
This formula comes from the assumption that it is (k*(lvl^1.95))+c and it is rechecked by more then 20 values and the final value. If you still believe it is wrong come with more data and say how you collected it. [Snej]
"Hope this helps for finding the values for the other skills too."
I have previously described my search method as well as providing an excel file containing the ~700 data points I collected. Please at least glance at the work of others before assuming you have done something novel, let alone correct. Also please sign your comments so I don't have to track down your IP (84.190.74.252) on the edit page to revert your erroneous changes, thanks. Userjjb 13:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
You are right that I should have provide the formula with more evidence, which I now did. But you also should recheck your data before answering and maybe trying to evaluate the others work too. The data I presented are from the PC Version. [Snej]

I have concerns about validity of the numbers presented in the Skill XP Formulae section (assuming the formula itself is accurate). Take Pickpocket for instance. At level 15, the formula would be something like 0.03 * (15 ^ 1.95) - 30 = -24.10479... Unless I've made a mistake implementing this, it doesn't become a positive number till level 35. Same goes for Lockpicking and Smithing. If these are actually accurate, could someone explain why or where I've gone wrong?

Incidentally, the Oblivion wiki had tables for this sort of thing. Is there a reason why this isn't presented in this manner here as well? The tables earlier on that page were also useful.

The values for Smithing are 15->16: 2.1820420+ 1->2: 1.8765624+ 2->3: 1.8810370+ 15->100: 572.5032+ so k=1/640 and c=1200/640 [Snej]

The values for Pickpocket are 20->21: 41.492486+ 1->2: 30.895058+ 20->100: 10590.73+ so k=5/162 and c=5000/162 [Snej]

Leveling Enchanting

I found this on the main page, so I've moved it here. Kerrick 14:46, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Disenchanting grants slightly more skill experience than enchanting. Similar to Forging, enchanting gives the same amount of experience gain towards a level irrespective of the item enchanted, the 'size' of the enchantment nor the quality of gem/soul.

Not true. The level of the enchantment gives more experience in disenchanting. To test disenchant iron gauntlets of minor smithing and then disenchant dragonscale gauntlets of peerless smithing.
Some enchantments are naturally "greater" than others. For instance the sneak enchantment at peerless will give you several skill points at lower level and a full skill point even at mid range. Sneak enchantment I believe has the highest sell price if enchanting for training or house money.

Ohgma infinium exploit

My ps3 broke immediately after using the Ohgma infinium exploit to raise all my skills to 100, could this have caused that? Andil the mage 21:49, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Did the just game crash or freeze or did your ps3 actually break?RIM 21:55, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Broke, I got the YLOD Andil the mage 21:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't have a ps3(I play Xbox) but it is unlikely that it would have broken the ps3 because of that. it may well have frozen or crashed the game but i don't think it would have broken it, although it could happen. If it is the case that the glitch broke your ps3 you should be able to get a refund or free replacement.RIM 22:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Too late for that, warranty ran out about 3 years ago and i tore it apart retrieving the disk Andil the mage 22:28, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to hear that...well you could return Skyrim for the ps3 and get your money back and then buy it again for PC or Xbox. As for the glitch causing it, for the time being maybe a note should be added to warn people about the potential danger at least until it can be proved or disproved. sorry to hear about your ps3:(RIM 22:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

moved note

"However it is rumored that a character can be sent to jail after performing a crime and all the skills will and experience can be earned again to go past the level gap. (however this is yet to be confirmed.)"

I moved this from the maximum level section because it doesn't make too much sense (at least to me) and as it says, it is yet to be confirmed. (Eddie The Head 07:48, 23 December 2011 (UTC))
Jail has no effect on skill levels in Skyrim, only skill progress. As such, you couldn't push them past 100 with this, anyway. --DaedalusMachina 10:09, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Lvl 81 (and a half)

using the Oghma Infinium exploit on my PS3 I got to lvl 81 and a half and figured there must be a way to get to lvl 82... but apparently there isn't, maybe Bethesda will release some DLC but maybe not if anyone knows it would be greatly appreciated

There's no way to go beyond this level. Once all stats are at 100, they cannot go further, and thus no leveling can be done. --DaedalusMachina 11:15, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
you would have to some how lower your skills to get them back up and since the jail method from oblivion doesn't work in skyrim it would be impossible at the moment, but perhaps in future dlcs they're maybe a quest that lowers your skills like how in oblivion how the greenmote quest can be used to lower your attributes and level past what you should. -- sincerely; LEGION — Unsigned comment by 96.234.163.229 (talk) at 05:09 on 6 February 2012

Leveling trouble

I haven't leveled since I started, and when I want to go up just one level it makes me level up as much as I've racked up to. I don't like leveling up unless I've trained 5 times each level. So now I'm stuck at level one. I'm on x-box 360.

Skill XP Formula

[Editing the whole page or the skill xp section shows only old content - so I have to open a new section]

The values for Sneak are 20->21: 25.97140+ 1->2: 10.71110+ 20->100: 12548.43+ so k=2/45 and c=32/3.

There is a additional constant in Lockpicking which is used every time you use "player.advskill lockpicking <x>" this constant is 2/9=0.2222222. The following values for Lockpicking are lowered by this constant, so you can check the values using player.advskill once. The values for Lockpicking are 25->26: 9.400485+ 1->2: 6.449999+ 25->100: 1950.102+ so k=1/180 and c=1200/180.

The values for Alchemy are 15->16: 505.8815+ 1->2: 88.79999+ 15->100: 571424+ so k=32/15 and c=1300/15.

The values for Enchanting are 15->16: 0.407229+ 1->2: 0.189999+ 15->100: 309.835+ so k=1/900 and c=170/900. [Snej]84.190.74.24 01:02, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The values for Onehanded are 15->16: 62.38316+ 1->2: 0.31746+ 15->100: 83937.1+ so k=20/63 and c=0.

The values for Twohanded are 15->16: 66.05276+ 1->2: 0.33613+ 15->100: 88874.6+ so k=40/119 and c=0.

The values for Marksman are 15->16: 42.25956+ 1->2: 0.21505+ 15->100: 56860.6+ so k=20/93 and c=0.

The values for Block are 15->16: 48.52023+ 1->2: 0.24691+ 15->100: 65284.4+ so k=20/81 and c=0.

The values for LightArmor are 20->21: 172.1783+ 1->2: 0.4999+ 20->100: 131569.9+ so k=1/2 and c=0.

The values for HeavyArmor are 15->16: 103.4247+ 1->2: 0.5262+ 15->100: 139158.9+ so k=10/19 and c=0.

The values for Illusion are 15->16: 85.43781+ 1->2: 0.434782+ 15->100: 114957.4+ so k=10/23 and c=0.

The values for Conjuration are 15->16: 187.1495+ 1->2: 0.95230+ 15->100: 251811.5+ so k=20/21 and c=0.

The values for Destruction are 15->16: 291.1214+ 1->2: 1.48145+ 15->100: 391706.7+ so k=40/27 and c=0.

The values for Restoration are 20->21: 344.3567+ 1->2: 0.99990+ 20->100: 263139.8+ so k=1 and c=0.

The values for Alteration are 20->21: 229.5711+ 1->2: 0.66660+ 20->21: 175426.6+ so k=2/3 and c=0.

For those who are interested in converting a decimal to a fraction, you will find something here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#Best_rational_approximations [Snej]84.190.73.80 02:36, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Clean up?

For readability and consistency, I suggest merging/moving the skill training section to the sections on the respective skill pages, only referring to them on this page. Santaranger 08:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Default attribute values

I'm currently waiting for my nuclear power station, that can handle Skyrim. Until it arrives I'm planning my first 4 characters... For that I can't find any figures about the starting values of attributes (for races, if it differs). Something like "at lvl 1 you have 100 Health, 50 Magicka, 100 Stamina and 200 Carry capacity" would be helpful (or a chart: one line for each race). Should someone provide this info, or even put it on this page (or somewhere else - Starting Out, or so) I would be very thankful.Puhapoci 14:47, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

everyone has 100 everything and 300 carry weight, except altmer who have 150 magicka (Eddie The Head 15:27, 13 January 2012 (UTC))
As promised: now I'm thankful :) Puhapoci 12:50, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


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