Skyrim talk:Easter Eggs/Archive 5

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Easter Eggs discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Galaxy Quest

In the inn in Winterhold, Dragur says the line, "It turned inside out, and exploded", a line from the Movie Galaxy quest.

• This easter egg already exists on the page. Read the Easter Eggs page before suggesting any. Commentaholic 17:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Just wanted to note that I created an account because I heard this particular reference, and wanted to note it. — Unsigned comment by Makeminemaudlin (talk • contribs) at 07:26 on January 6, 2012

East India Trading Company

There is a particular "loading" screen that shows a wooden sign with a ship on it, which reads "East Empire Company". This is most likely a reference to the East India Trading company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company). I've noticed this loading screen only shows when going to an empire controlled city, which further suggests the East India Trading Company. The British Empire basically enforced a monopoly for this company in exchange for military and political favors for 200 years. 50.90.46.107 17:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The East Empire Company is a recurring organization from other games, and as such any Easter Egg reference would belong on the first game to feature it. Furthermore, this has already been shot down as an Easter Egg in one of the archives. Eric Snowmane^Questions?_{Send an Email} 17:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

... and this has been shot down REPEATEDLY. We should make a point of that... Commentaholic 23:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Nice job guys, jump down his frickin' throat for trying to contribute an Easter Egg. The East India Trading Company is OBVIOUSLY older than the first Elder Scrolls game, so just because it is referenced in other games does not mean he is wrong.

He is not wrong in it being a reference (it is, certainly), but it's not a reference that belongs on this page for the reasons stated by Eric Snowmane - multiple references throughout the series should in this Wiki go to the first game to mention it, which is not Skyrim. And since this really has been discussed multiple times, editors may get a bit annoyed if it comes up again. But nothing of Eric's or Commentaholic's posts are directed against 50.90's contribution, but are trying to explain the reason why this should not go here (ES) respectively how to avoid this coming up for the umpteenth time (CH). The only guy "jumping down throats" here is you. --Ulkomaalainen 22:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

BS. Eric had a valid point, but there was no need for Commentaholic to add that remark. A little civility isn't too much to ask for--50.90 was just trying to contribute, and wasn't rude about it at all. As an editor, Comment, you should know better.

Ulfric Stormcloak Inspired By William Wallace

--Couple Similarities, I'm willing to bet with this much its more than just coincidence

1.Assassinations:

-Ulfric killed High King Torygg, starting his rebellion. Ironically, William Wallace killed High Sheriff William de Heselrig, starting a rebellion

2.Rebellions:

-Both occurred in areas of similar cultures (Skyrim and Scottland),

-Both started after an assassination,

-Both were fighting for independence from a similar, more powerful empire (England and The Empire)

3.Crimes:

-Both were put to death for their crimes (assuming you chose the empire's side).

-Both accused of crimes against citizens (see the end quest of the imperials).

4.Armor Similarites

-Stormcloaks wore similar armor to Wallace: See:"Braveheart" Movie's William Wallace Painting of Wallace Statue of Wallace compared to Stormcloaks

VivaLaColdplaya 03:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

That could be the first reasonably decent Easter Egg I have seen yet. With the proof you posted, and my own research, I will side with you on that one. Eric Snowmane^Questions?_{Send an Email} 04:09, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I was going to argue that skyrim is more similar to Norse culture although everything else seems legit and the armor is errily similar si imma give one point for historical allusion.

This isn't a concept that leaps readily to my mind, but you've posted enough valid arguments to earn my support. 205.133.162.67 14:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

If I had to choose which culture Skyrim is most like, I definitely would agree with you that it would be Norse. All I meant was that Scotland had a mildly similar culture, not the most similar one. The reference didn't jump straight at me immediately, but I saw the Nord warrior on the loading screen with the Braveheart war paint seen in the Movie pic I put up, so I did a little research on it and realized the similarities. VivaLaColdplaya 01:14, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Inspired it very well may be, after all it is an iconic story not least thanks to Mel Gibson even outside of Celtic culture. On the other hand many things are too generic to call it a "reference" or egg:

• Rebellions of a people being part of a larger country is a very common thing throughout history and continues until today. Think Biafra, Chechnya, the Balkans, South Ossetia, Kashmir, South Sudan, East Timor, Transnistria, Angola and so on for modern examples; the Netherlands, Scotland (your example, but multiple times not only WW), the Basque country (continuing since 15th century), many examples during the formation of modern nation states (i.e., when the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, France and Russia as well as others started to form from minor nobility run provinces). Even in the Classical era: how do you think the ancient empires crumbled mostly? The Romans, Persians, Babylonians - mostly it was rebellions within the country, not wars lost against other nations. Admittedly often after being weakened by a war, but that would be the case here too with the Empire having lost to the Altmeri.
• Assassination of leading personalities of a (real or assumed) oppressor has been a tried and tested way of trying to do harm to the country. Caesar was killed by his own people. World War I was triggered by the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand of Austria (admittedly Europe was a powder keg then that would have exploded anyway, but maybe Skyrim too), the Basque ETA has killed quite a few local Spanish authorities over the years, having a look through the history of Czarist Russia shows many being killed and so on.
• When a rebellion attempt is not successful it is common and will always be that the powers that remained will try to get hold of and punish the other party, regardless of who's right and who's wrong in the historians' opinion. Execution has been the punishment of choice over many centuries, some still do it today. So no surprise or coincidence there, only the logical conclusion of what happened before. No surprise as well that a non democratic government will find all kinds of general charges of "crimes against the nation" when handling uprisings. Even some democratic ones have "funny" laws like "Anti Turkic behavior" in Turkey.
• There's even a major difference in Ulfric killing a king and WW killing only some local authority with no power of his own (apart from that bestowed upon him by the king). Heselring would have been more of a Thane, two levels down, in Skyrim.

So I think that the whole story is quite generic and can be found multiple times throughout human history not only in the case of William Wallace. Or - regarding your bet - it can easily be a coincidence (apart from maybe the uniforms). Either that or many aspects of e.g. the story of Marcus Antonius similar to the plot are a coincidence.

Having said all that, it is still possible that WW played a major part in inspiring this plot. As I said, it is probably one of the best known examples within popular culture, not least thanks to the movie. And I admit that the uniforms look a lot alike. On the other hand, I have no idea whether this style was common through the times or a specific style of WW (even if it was common though, they still could have had that image of Mel Gibson in mind). So I think it may be possible, but we do not have enough to go on as of now to include it. (And I would not count the cultural aspect at all, neither for nor against the case - Skyrim is set in a Nordic culture and every reference would have to adapt to that, be it Norse in origin itself, or maybe Aztec.) --Ulkomaalainen 03:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

You bet your ass that if anyone in America actually successfully stirred up a rebellion that resulted in a lot of killing, the leaders on the losing side would be executed today as well. Wars usually result in the execution of the loser's leadership, that it didn't happen during the American Civil War is astonishing, but was probably very wise on the part of the Union. Bloomingdedalus 02:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

You bring up some good points, but an argument that this is far too general seems a bit far fetched. You're right there has been some rebellions similar to Wallace's, but it's hard to argue that any came closer to the Stormcloak rebellion. As far as I know, this is the most famous example of anyone with a "High" in their title being assassinated in their own court, starting a rebellion. But in the end, it's not up to us alone to decided, it's up to the public. So unless we have more denials of this reference, it's 4-1 for its input. VivaLaColdplaya 20:09, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not think it's far fetched. (For a few general observations on "similarities and non similarities" I wrote something in the Jack the Ripper discussion further down this page, I don't think I should repeat it here but it applies). Here we're struggling with a classic confirmation bias. Lets talk about differences:

• "most famous example with anyone with a "High" in their title. First of all, "high" in a title as a reference is itself somewhat far fetched, as it really is a generic part of a title (high commissioner, high school teacher) and the title itself would be more important, which does not match up (see above) since both victims differ a lot in rank. Second: when we're taling titles/names, why are none of the others at least somewhat similar? Torygg as well as Ulfric could have names closer to the supposed original. It could have taken place outside of solitude in a place somewhat reminding of Larnark.
• More importantly: even the "assassination" itself is extremely different, the only thing in common is that both do not really hold up to the definition of an assassination despite being called such. Ulfric challenged Torygg to a duel (one on one) in court while William Wallace (for all we know, which is not that much actually) did not so much an assassination but an outright attack with a flock of people resulting in a battle leading to the death of Heseling.
• Ulfric seems to be a clear leader for the Stormcloaks while Wallace was only one of a couple of leaders and similar incidents around the country - his "higher" status as an icon apparently did not start until more than a hundred years after his death. (William the Hardy, Andrew Moray to name two others)
• Skyrim was part of The Empire since hundreds of years and Ulfric wants to gain independence, Scotland itself struggled to keep independence from a more and more intrusive neighbor.
• An admittedly somewhat weaker point: Scotland only had to cope with the English as overlords while Skyrim is in the complicated position of being part of The Empire which itself is somewhat controlled by the Aldmeri/Thalmor.

To sum it up, I still think the differences outweigh the similarities heavily, especially since I still think you "count" them wrong. But the armor (as of now) goes in favor of it being a reference/inspiration, since where there's one there's a heightened probability of there being a second (and maybe third which we'll have to uncover). Another point in favor of it being a reference (not yet mentioned) would be the struggle of regional "Jarls" for the throne of all of "Skyrim" (which was similar to the situation in Scotland, albeit itself being quite common whenever some emperor/king/whatever ruler dies and even shows differences again: Scotland not having a designed heir, Queen Margret being too young when she died to have offspring or married, while Skyrim has one in Elisif) Still, I do not think that you have a strong case. And while having a consensus cannot mean you'll have to convince everybody, this should normally not be a "vote count". In my opinion the best way to continue would be to try to find further arguments for and against it and discuss them before including this. --Ulkomaalainen 07:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

(←) Just thought I'd add a point to this. I can't help but notice the way the phrase 'true Nord' is used and repeated by both sides of the civil war. It reminds me a little bit of the fallacy of the true Scotsman, where both sides genuinely believe that a true Nord would do this or wouldn't do that. Not an Easter Egg, I know, but I found it quite funny whilst playing.

Anyway, I think I'd agree with the other posters here that this is simply too broad to be a 'reference' to be an Easter Egg. It's a bit like saying the Elves in game are an Easter Egg for people who've read folklore. It's too all-encompassing, too big an influence on the game to call an 'Easter egg' for somebody to find. This is another example of how useful a page for cataloguing writing inspirations would be. I'd love to see a General:Writing or General:Lore Origins. --Admos 22:27, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Hangover

Why did someone delete that entry? It's clearly a homage. Skysky 00:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

In the comment line it was said, this could refer to any hangover. Admittedly, I've had a few in my day and never came into this situation, so I would support re-entry unless more specific opposition comes up. Ulkomaalainen 00:50, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that its a reference so I did a revert. The consensus was definitely there is the half page long discussion over it a few weeks ago. Eric Snowmane^{Talk•Email•Contributions} 00:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Thats what I thought, thanks. I've had plenty of hangovers and never woke up in a church, lost my friend, and got married without realizing it, haha. Skysky 22:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

This easter egg is ridiculous. The mere fact that may is used is enough to remove (easter eggs must be verifiable). The only thing in common is that you don't remember the night before, something typical of strong hangovers. Also, the consensus was definitely not there in that discussion. Two users debated the facts and came to the conclusion that the conversation was too deep. So, it needs to be removed. Simple. elliot (talk) 18:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I kind of think this is a reference, myself, but since this has to be the most widely contested entry in the history of the page, maybe we should decide to either keep it for good or remove it for good. ThuumofReason 18:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

At least the most widely discussed entry still included, I think William Wallace and Edoras would beat it hands down. But must be verifiable is too harsh a criterion, since we just cannot verify anything for certain. Since I have not seen the entire movie in question, it would be nice to have a breakdown of the exact happenings during the movie. --Ulkomaalainen 18:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll say this: if "A Night to Remember" is a reference to "The Hangover" it's time to lobby Bethesda to get new level designers with some sense of literature and mythology. In fact, a lot of the Easter Eggs in this game are kind of disappointingly for people of the lowest standard of intelligence, something not common in their games up to this point. Bloomingdedalus 07:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

(←) wikipedia:The Hangover#Plot. elliot (talk) 18:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Blizzard and the Warcraft Games

I was in gloombound mine. Its the mine next to the orc camp that has all the ebony. It has a lot of ebony located in clustered areas, so you are sometimes next to an npc for an extended amount of time. If you have noticed in this game, if you stand next to an npc, they cycle through all the words and sayings in their ai. Sometimes this leads to funny ones uncommonly heard.

So I'm doing other things at the same time, before switching nodes so I'm literally there ten minutes. He goes thru everything, and my back is turned. After a bit of silence, he silently says

"Work Work"

This is an obvious reference to the orc peons from Warcraft 1, Warcraft 2, warcraft 3, and world of warcraft. The peons all say "Work Work", in each game, in the same voice.

The further reason I think this is homage, is cuz the orcs say it the same way in both, like "Werk Werk" if it was phonetic. In addition, I SWEAR, if they didn't use the actual soundclip, hence the lower volume, then the voice actor specifically tried to mimic the way its said in warcraft, cuz I swore thats what I was playing. I left and came back, to verify, and it indeed happened again, after a bit of time. Its not the first thing he says, but it is indeed said. It was the first male orc I encountered, the second person that was encountered in the mine, for me.

I think this should be added, as it is prettttty obvious. Heard on the xbox360. This isn't an argument as I am not arguing with anyone, I'm simply presenting something for observation and addition to the article. Mongoloids who assume this is an arguement should prolly go troll 4chan. Just saying.-Geo Stephens 64.85.221.189 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry does not make your argument better. If you provide a link to the relevant sound clips, MAYBE it will be considered. Otherwise, it can't really be considered for addition. Also, you don't help your own position when you delete what other people say. That's kind of the point of talk pages, you need to be able to see what was said by everyone. ThuumofReason 20:49, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I'll go check out the Orc Mines to see if this really is in game. However, I can confirm that the "Work, Work" or even "Work, Work, Work" is a common passing dialogue used in all the Warcraft games by Orc Peons. One of the iconic sounds of WC in my book.--Bwross 09:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

• • • WoW Wiki Entry
    • YouTube of Soundbytes

It would be helpful if we all got back on topic. less insulting others, more discussing the original issue. RedArchon1 1/1/2012

It was obvious you were trolling, especially since the last few discussions had a slew of insults from you that were not professional or helpful, and were not even on topic. Simply telling someone to shut up when they suggest something WITH ZERO BACKING doesn't help you either. I assumed you were a troll, and deleting your nonsense does the community as a whole justice. Its good to see you wised up, and edited your last couple of posts to a respectable level, since I culled a few of them, for the filth and trash that they were. If you present yourself in an adult and mature matter, maybe people will take what you say into consideration. -Geo Stephens 64.85.221.189 21:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, as unprofessional as "shut up" sounds, he wasn't saying anything obscene, so his posts shouldn't have been modified. Eric Snowmane^{Talk•Email•Contributions} 21:42, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Just because you don't like what somebody is saying doesn't mean it's okay to remove it entirely. We're not here to debate my methods, we're here to discuss the proposition you made. Getting back on topic, can you provide any kind of links to the things you just described? The page is protected, so you're ultimately making your case to the people who can edit it. If you can't do that, you can't expect it to be added. Please try to understand that there are an insane amount of suggestions made on this page every day, and most of them are patently ridiculous, and not just by my standards. If you can't provide any solid arguments as to why it should be included, this just seems like another one of those suggestions, and it gets tiresome having to explain it over and over, m'kay? ThuumofReason 21:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea what ThuumofReason said in deleted posts, but even if he did get out of line, so did you, GeoStephens. "Trash", "Filth", "Troll" and especially "Mongoloids" do _not_ work in a discussion if you want to win people over. The whole tone of your posts makes one not take you seriously at all, just like you told others. So here's a mirror, take a deep look, and maybe restate your case in a more civil manner. --Ulkomaalainen 23:58, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Why on earth would Bethesda have any praise for Blizzard? Bethesda's games are eons ahead of anything Blizzard has made in professionalism and maturity. In fact, I would have considered firing the guy who put the whisp mother under the stone gazebo near Peryite's shrine because it looks so much like a quest in Ashenvale in WoW. Bloomingdedalus 07:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, that is a matter of opinion, really. I for one am a big Warcraft and WoW fan. They have always written wonderful stories for their plots, and could argue that they are bigger and better than The Elder Scrolls. But only by a little. ES^T•E•C 17:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

De Rerum Dirennis

There is an alchemy skill book written by Vorian Direnni, called De Rerum Dirennis, which is likely a reference to the Latin poet Lucretius's work, De Rerum Natura (About the Nature of Things). Furthermore, the book is an autobiography, so just as Lucretius' work could be tranlated "About Things Natural," Direnni's work could be translated "About Things Dirennial" or, things related to Direnni, i.e. his life.

Should take it to Oblivion then, the book first appeared there.--Bwross 06:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not an easter egg anywhere. De Proprietatibus Rerum, De rerum varietate and dozens of other books use "De Rerum" in their titles. While Bethesda developers may have had one particular book in mind when crafting the title for "On the Nature of the Dirennis", it's not an easter egg. rpeh •T•C•E• 00:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Romeo and Juliet in Whiterun

This isn't listed at all so gonna go right out and say it.

In Whiterun, there's a Male Battle-Born that leans against one of the poles in the market district. He talks about people liking death or something like that.

If you pickpocket him; you can steal a note from a Female Gray-Mane basicly saying that the two are in love but couldn't say this to their fathers. Both want the war between the clans to end and to live in peace. Can't remember what else it says but it basicly explain the whole Romeo and Juliet thing.

Note: You can kill the Battle-Born Guy (Romeo) and loot the note; if you are that evil.

This is a coincidence, I can assure you. The note you mentioned has significance in a quest, it's not just there for show. ThuumofReason 02:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm just going to butt in and agree with this being a reference. I actually think it was said before that this was a reference. R&J, being as famous as it is, has more reference in this game than a lot more thats mentioned in this article. Skysky 02:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if it's just a part of a quest, something like that still draws from R and J. You can't throw out something just because it's part of something bigger altogether. I say it's an egg.VivaLaColdplaya 03:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

A little too obvious to be an 'easter egg'? If the entire quest is a reference to romeo and juliet, that isnt exactly subtle. Hope 20:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it is not, actually it does not really have to do with this letter as a quest (and using it can easily be avoided in total). It is just one of several possibilities to get some information you need (by blackmailing the secret lovers). --Ulkomaalainen 20:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Romeo and Juliet

in the riften tavern, the bee and barb, their is a purchasible follower named mercurio. This could be a possible reference to the character "mercutio" from the story Romeo and Juliet. mercurio will boast to your character about his combat skills that can be purchased, and jokes that you should be glad he is on your side. This is not unlike "mercutio" who would accept every chance to boast his skills in combat, and crack a joke. — Unsigned comment by 75.192.38.13 (talk) on 21 December 2011

No. The fact that your chances in combat will go up when you hire him and down when you let him go could just as easily be a reference to the element mercury and its use in thermometers. This isn't even close to being an easter egg. rpeh •T•C•E• 00:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The Greek root for "mercenary" is "mercury," "merx" in Greek means "merchandise." Bloomingdedalus

Lord of the rings dawnbraker/sting other elven swords

Okay you guys are probably gonna reject this, but I'll ask anyway. Does dawnstar count as an easter egg? It is similar to the elven swords in j.r.r tolkien's hobbit e.g sting and orcrist, both because it glows brightly when it is nearby the typr of creatures it is efficient at killing. E.G Sting always glows brightly when near orcs/goblins, and dawnbreaker glows when near undead. Also, sting is very efficient at killing goblinkind, and dawnbreaker is efficient at killing undead. Looking at all the other things that got on this page, I think this should be enough, and it's pretty obvious anyway. If you disagree, please don't fuss about it, just say no and clarify. 219.88.64.227 10:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

See the archives for discussion of a similar issue. ThuumofReason 13:55, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The only real argument I see there, is that it's not only a reference to sting, but also Glimrend (I think) and Orcrist. So what? that's precisely what I said. I still don't understand why it couldn't br noted on the page. Looking at all the other stuff that got on there,I think this is fine. -Broxigar 219.88.64.227 20:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't. You're right that there's a lot of crap on the page, but that doesn't justify putting in more. Anyone else care to weigh in on this? Eric? rpeh? Minor? ThuumofReason 20:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I with ThuumofReason on this one for 3 reasons. First and foremost the sword is Dawnbreaker the place is dawnstar. Second, it isn't even slightly hidden being the reward for a daetric quest. Third, while it could be a tolken reference, it is just a standard archetype. A sword for killing evil that glows in the presence, I don't think sting is the first, but the even if it was, it is now just part of the swords a sourcery story type. Heck you can see this in vampire stories with crosses. The idea being that some outside power which hates evil is somehow embeded or given a port through the weapon. My point being it isn't hidden or obscure, I wouldn't call it an easter egg, at best it is just a 4th wall breaking reference. --UnknownLurker 00:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

The Weatherward Circlet was a reward for a fairly obvious quest in Oblivion. It would seem in character for the developers that this is another reference to the Tolkein universe.

PROTIP: Trying to sound like an intellectual requires a coherent train of thought. We've got 2 against in this discussion alone vs. one verified user proposing it. Unless you can give some more convincing arguments, it's not going on the page. ThuumofReason 21:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I have seen the trilogy only once, so I couldn't say either way, but it sounds like it could work. LotR was the only time I have ever heard of glowing weapons near enemies. ES^T•E•C 21:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I think dawnbreaker glows despite being around the undead. The light is also directly related to the quest where you guide meridia's light through the temple. Also, it glows at the cross-guard area and not at the blade. The connection isn't strong enough to LoTR and it is too easily found item in my opinion. Hope 20:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

All excellent points. ThuumofReason 19:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Removing non-egg references

I removed a bunch of entries that weren't hidden and therefore didn't meet the definition of "easter eggs". I figured this would be okay because of the notices at the top of the page that made a distinction and said that the page was for eggs only. If anybody has a problem with this or if I was out of line, feel free to revert, with my apologies. ThuumofReason 23:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Hidden is all in the eye of the beholder, and those were all approved on here beforehand. Sure, some weren't put in a dungeon that can't be found on the map and was locked by a password, but they weren't completely easy to find. I figure we should all debate each one before removal, that way all the power isn't in the hand of one person. VivaLaColdplaya 04:11, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The other easter egg pages demonstrate that things as simple as names and unique items where a reference or joke is involved can be considered eggs. Even the main quest is fair game. I'm not defending each and every reference on the other egg pages (standards on the Oblivion page in particular seems pretty lax), but overall they demonstrate that "hidden" is not a very hard standard to meet. Players' freedom to roam as they wish in a sandbox and encounter or ignore what they wish means that most of the time, all Bethesda has to do in order to "hide" something is not call attention to it. The bar is low. So, yes, even a reference or joke that's "easy to find" could be considered a reference, because at least some finding is necessary. Where exactly the line falls depends on our communal judgment. But the main battle is still whether or not a reference/joke exists.

On easter eggs in general; breaking the 4th wall is not uncommon, however it is my feeling to be an easter egg something needs to be secret about it in one way or another. For example if the name of a character is the same as the name of a developer who died during the game, even though the name of the character isn't hidden the reference is. It is there so people with the inside knowledge will get it and see it as a tribute. On the other hand a reference that everyone might get like a calling a character Elizebeth the Queen, but is very hidden by having her be in a part of the game that you wouldn't normally get to would also be an easter egg. You would make a chart between how obvious the reference is and how hidden it is and put everything on one side as easter eggs and everything on the other side as not. Also something that is very hidden could just be funny or meant to reward players who explore there didn't need to be a 4th wall breaking reference at all. These are my thoughts, but don't take it to mean I claim to define it. However when I comment on other easter eggs, this is what I'm refering too. UnknownLurker 23:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Alice in Wonderland- Probably open to some debate. I hesitantly support it, but it would be nice if we identify something significant and solid- some suggestive dialogue, the arrangement of the table, etc. The note could probably be worded a little better.

I would say that this is not at all hidden and the reference is very obvious. I wouldn't classify this as an easter egg though it is possible a humorous reference UnknownLurker 23:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to say anything is truly hidden if you're this critical of things being hidden. Point being, you have to find the man wandering in Solitude, accept to help him, head to the castle, get permission to enter the Pelagius wing, explore the wing, and find the teleport. I concider that hidden enough. And as for the likeliness of the relationship to Alice, its in the forest, it's a feast of some sort, and Sheogorath is the Lord of Madness (similar to the Mad Hatter). Seems legit to me VivaLaColdplaya 20:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

It could be argued the end of sanguine's quest is also reference based on having a feast in the forest and sanguine also being debatably similar to the mad hatter. Hope 20:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it can claim to be hidden when you are basically led by the nose to it. It's a Daedric side quest, you get pointed to it simply by talking to a bartender. That the quest has several steps (most do) doesn't make what you find halfway through "hidden". I heartily agree that it's intended to draw parallels to Alice in Wonderland, but I don't think it's an easter egg by any means. It's not remotely "secret". Then again, most of the stuff on this page doesn't seem to be, so maybe I'm just nit-picking.Vardis 03:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Annie- I think it should stick around, because the parallel in the dialogue is very similar, distinctive, and there don't seem to be any competing references.

Not at all hidden, but the reference is somewhat obscure, could be a easter egg but I'm inclined to say it is just a humourous fourth wall break down. UnknownLurker 23:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Same as above, totally optional, essentially pointless on main questline, if you aren't paying attention you'll miss it, have to work to get there, hidden enough VivaLaColdplaya 20:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Cicerio- Yes, it's just a name, but the historical Cicero's association with assassination definitely provides a context where a reference is likely. I guess I'm for it.

I'm inclined to agree, the name is not an obvious reference and the knowledge isn't common. While the name isn't hidden the fact that many people wouldn't recognize it in any way as different from other names probably qualifies as an easter egg -UnknownLurker 23:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The Hangover- I've long thought this note should stick around. The very ambiguity that has led some to challenge it as a reference also solidify that it's hidden if it exists. The note might be less controversial if some summation of the significant connections was given.

I'm on the fence on this one. It isn't part of the main or major questlines so it is somewhat hidden, but it is a scripted quest and part of the daedric quest lines and the reference is not only well known, but overplayed. It almost feels like someone said "The cake is a lie" as part of the main quest line. I'm inclined to say satire rather than easter egg UnknownLurker 23:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Optional questline, takes time to get there. I agree it should stay VivaLaColdplaya 20:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

That movie didn't even come to mind when i did that quest. A drunk blackout ending in trying to figure out what happened isn't exactly unique to that movie. I am still willing to believe that it could be a reference, but it is definitely not hidden.. making it just a reference not an 'easter egg'. Hope 20:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Love Potion No. 9- Definitely an egg. Arcadia is making a "love elixir", and in the movie "Love Potion No. 9", the eponymous potion is made of concentrated salt. Of all the possible reasons Arcadia could've wanted a kind of salt, she wanted it for a love elixir. Of all the possible ingredients she could've need to make a love potion, she needed a salt. I think that can be dismissed as an unintended coincidence. As far as I know, there are no conflicting references. And since the reference amounts one glib comment most players don't even pay attention to, it should have no problem being considered hidden.

The reference is obscure enought that I'm inclined to agree this is hidden by obscurity and probably an easter egg UnknownLurker 23:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Monty Python- I guess they're okay. I'm not their biggest fan, but I'm a fan. Couldn't care less, really. Moving on ...

While monty python is not very obscure it is fairly centered to the geek culture at least in the US. I just don't think "get on with it" is enough of a reference, it could be a reference to Terry Pratchett's Going postal, when the main character is about to be hanged. But I would be wrong. The "its but a scracth" definately appears to be a reference and is obscure enought that I would count it.

Volsung and Sigurd- Unlike the Cicero note, there's no contextual association made here. There's been no established connection between the heroes and the in-game characters bearing their names. Without that, the only reference they seem to establish is a cultural parallel that doesn't constitute an egg in my opinion.

The note about Wuuthrad is probably okay, but should probably be rewritten (especially if we end up removing the Volsung and Sigurd note), and it would help to know the exact name of the legend which supposedly bears the relation.

Pete's Dragon- Based on what's there, no. Unless there's something I'm missing. Is the old lady's line a lyric or something from the song? If so, that should probably be spelled out.

Red Dwarf- Meh. Not familiar with the show, but it looks okay to me.

I'm a big Red Dwarf Fan and honestly I think this is just coincidenc rather than reference but I could be wrong UnknownLurker 23:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Shawshank- definitely a reference. I think it can also be considered hidden. Not well hidden, but a player has to at least travel to the College, hear that Enthir is an under-the-table merchant (I think; this may not be necessary), then find and talk to Enthir. Like I said, the bar for "hidden" is pretty low. Minor Edits 09:11, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I am a fan of Red Dwarf, its a very funny show if you want to watch it, but to the matter at hand! I personally believe this could pass off as an Easter Egg. Eric Snowmane^{Talk•Email•Contributions} 09:28, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, quite honestly, I don't think you should be removing ANY reference without asking and getting opinions on it. A census or something. People actually put work into finding it, explaining it, writing it and so on, and it sounds REALLY wrong for you to delete them like you think you're right about it. It's silly and disrespectful. I'm sorry if this has come off as mean, but it keeps happening. People put work into this stuff. If I did all that research, and someone came around and said they didn't think it was an easter egg, deleting it without consenting to anyone, I'd feel terrible! Skysky 21:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks for your input. Discussion's pretty much over already. Also, see the previous section? ThuumofReason 21:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Your welcome for my input, and my statement still stands. Rude. Skysky 15:48, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Lord of the Rings - Edoras/Minas Tirith

I didn't look to see if anyone else mentioned this is the talk page, but I wanted to post it anyways. I feel that Whiterun is a reference to both Minas Tirith (the White city, capital of Gondor, with a great white tree outside the palace/citadel) and Edoras (capital of Rohan, built on a hill) from Lord of the Rings. Whiterun is reminiscent of Edoras in its location, the hill, the shape and view from a distance, and then Minas Tirith in color, setup (remotely) and the tree near the palace.

Self-edit: I looked and saw someone else noted a similarity to Edoras and was quickly shot down, to which I want to emphasize Minas Tirith. It isn't a clone of Edoras, but it certainly looks like a mix between both Edoras and Minas Tirith.

And for further emphasis and clarity before this is shot down, I will point out a few things: The walls of the city, the tree, and Dragonsreach are all similar to Minas Tirith. The general setup, the city on the hill and the way the city rises up to the "palace", Dragonsreach or The Golden Hall (a reference to Norse mythology itself which can also tie-in with Skyrim's primary influences), and the color/style of the other buildings are much closer to Edoras. Looking at Whiterun from a distance also gives a good image of Edoras (movie-specific - the hill, the yellow-grass plains, the open-ness), depending on which side of the city, and then the nearby rivers are more reminiscent of Minas Tirith as well.

I don't think that's an easter egg, but I'll leave it to the experts. 219.88.64.227 10:38, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Check the archives, it's already been discussed at length that Whiterun bears no connection to any LOTR cities. ThuumofReason 21:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Whiterun infact does have a connection. I just happened to watch lotro 2 and the first look at it immedietly made me think: Whiterun. And if you look at the houses in rohan they have the double dragon on top, EXACTLY the same as whiterun. It is quite strange indeed, that the only city ingame that has these double dragon things on houses'roofs is also the city being linked to rohan, a similar city with the same houses, environment, and just the general "feel" of similarities. Before you start arguing about this, watch lotro, skip to the part with rohan, and you will see what I'm talking about. And im not saying its an easter egg, I think it should be added to whiterun's page instead. 219.88.64.227 12:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the "feel" of similarities does not come up for me, for all the stuff mentioned before. The walls are stone in Whiterun but wood in Edoras, there's water and bridges in W, none in E, the land directly around W is fertile and green, around Edoras it's barren and brown (at least in the movies), W has three parts, E has two, W's quarters are divided by walls within the city, in E that's not the case.

Re: your dragons: I am not sure whether they are dragons or birds in Edoras, but you may be right. Still, W has dragons protuding on the side with a whole head (and only one per side) while E has the heads combined and opposite on a gable as it is customary in northern central Europe (e.g. here, which are horses).

But I may be incorrect in referring to the movies, since you mentioned "lotro" - does the second "o" stand for "online"? --Ulkomaalainen 13:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Oops I played lotro before I made the post and it was stuck in my head. But im already done arguing about this, since its been confirmed already. It also depends on how you look at whiterun. For example it the skyrim trailer it shows precisely the angle where it looks like rohan, probably on purpose. And the were horses not dragon heads, but as said, its already been confirmed so whatever. 06:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I still rather disagree. Perhaps I am crazy here but if you look at http://uesp.net/wiki/File:Rohan.jpg and http://images.wikia.com/lotr/images/2/2e/Edoras.jpg -- they seem pretty similar to me. While one clearly has more water than the other, you have two cities that have a gradual climb up to the main castle. Furthermore, that castle faces diagonally across the city rather than facing the most likely approach (from the right in both cases) where the hill slopes up towards it. In both cases, you can start at the castle, head to the right and along a wall on a path that descends to a slightly lower level. Then you can turn left and continue gradually down to the lower area. Once you reach this lower area, you can turn left and proceed a nearly level section along the third side of this not quite rectangular city. Slightly different is that in Whiterun, it's actually possible to approach the castle from the left side (which I think was actually also the case in the movie version of the Twin Towers).

And let's not forget that both are surrounded by plains all around, which is something of a rarity in Skyrim. Or that both places were considered crucial center points to hold. Just for kicks, check out this map, download it and flip it upside down. Use this -- For fear of ruining any credibility I may have built up, interestingly, Middle Earth (when flipped) has a mountain range that runs down the middle, curves at the south, wraps around to the east and creates a sort of cup shape to the east. As it proceeds north, it has a small "gap" in Rohan near Edoras. Once it passes this gap, it opens up to the east and west, creating a lowlands to the north by the water that spreads rather far to the west before a mountain heads north to the sea. West of that area is a lower area (Mordor). In a lot of cases where there are discrepancies, it's merely that water has been changed out for mountains or vice versa. The exception being at the southwest edge of the map where, in Middle-Earth it opens to fields where Skyrim blocks it off by Mountains rather than just putting up an invisible wall. All of this really to say that the section of the map that Whiterun occupies is similar (though not exact) to the position that Edoras held in Middle-Earth.

It's not an exact copy of course (but where's the fun in that) but you don't find it strange that we're arguing whether this is a reference to Edoras when (I think we can all agree) it has what is clearly the White Tree of Gondor in it. My question is how likely is it that the White Tree is a coincidence considering that we're arguing over that same cities likeness to Edoras.

If that doesn't sell it for you, do a google search for Edoras (but don't click search). The first recommendation is "Edoras". The Second is "Edoras Whiterun". Either they did it on purpose or they accidentally made a city that a lot of people think looks like Edoras.ExtremePhobia 03:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

We're not adding it. End of discussion. ThuumofReason 19:27, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Similarities in architecture is not enough for an easter egg, unless it was very blatently obvious. A hill leading up to the castle is a huge defensive advantage, not copying something from a movie. ThuumoReason is right. I appreciate the effort you went to but it's just not an easter egg. RIM 19:34, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Tafiir

Folks in Thief Wiki suggested that the Dragon Language word "Tafiir" for "thief" was obviously inspired by the word "Taffer", a general expletive meaning thief or scumbag or something unsavoury like that in the Thief game series. (Not at all far-fetched, considering Emil Pagliarulo worked on the Thief series too, and, hey, Skyrim pretty much clones most of Thief sneaking mechanics wonderfully. =) Thoughts? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 17:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, this sounds interesting. You might have something going on here. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on this aw well. Skysky 23:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

This could be one, but I have doubts. How is the dragon word pronounced? I'm on the borderline of approval and disaproval here, after all, we only have a vaguely spelling and identical meaning. VivaLaColdplaya 05:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Inspiration is not the same as an intentional reference. inspiration is not an easter egg. Being a reference would imply it has clever parallels and intended to be sublty recognized. I think it could count as inspiration because it is nearly identical, but maybe it could count as a reference because they might want us to say "aha!, I recognize that from Thief" so I dont know... Hope 21:12, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Unknown reference - undead chicken

I was wondering about east of Honeystrand and south of Geirmund's Hall and ran across a novice necromancer. Nearby was a barrel wrapped in bones with a nest on top and a box at the bottom with chicken eggs and a giant's toe. There were two chickens acting normal near the barrel ... who did not show up with my newly acquired Detect Life spell. After a few seconds, they squawked and died. A search of the bodies showed the standard chicken breast. Nothing on the barrel seems to be activatable. Truly bizarre, any clue as to what that was (besides a momentary mind-blower)?

--RedUnmaker 04:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

It's potentially not a reference at all. In which case, it could still qualify as an egg due to the bizarre humor of it. Minor Edits 04:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a custom quest script for Ultima Online freeshards that has a "chicken necromancer" that raises chickens from the dead and has them fight for him while they lay special "eggs" that could be redeemed for prizes or gold. Considering the fact it's a very, very vague reference that VERY few people would recognize, I wouldn't consider it a normal easter egg. If it is, it's one of the most recondite easter eggs ever. — Unsigned comment by Caithes (talk • contribs) at 21:01 on January 3, 2012

Another Swedish Metal Reference

I know they have the whole section with Anders Nystrom from the band 'Katatonia', but there is also another quest with the title 'In my time of need' which is a song title by another swedish metal band called 'Opeth'.

That's a common phrase, not a reference. ThuumofReason 18:05, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Draugr Coinpurse

Inside Shroud Heath Barrow, on the left hand side in the tunnel after the spiral staircase, there is a Draugr skeleton with a Coin Purse in a rather cheeky (ahem) place. I've included it here because I haven't seen any other coin purses in Draugr cairns like this one, and it is more on the PG-13/R side of things.

And how is this an easter egg, exactly? ThuumofReason 18:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

According to the Easter Egg main page for Skyrim: "Easter Eggs are secrets that the developers put in games to give people a laugh when they find them (provided that they understand the joke or reference)." I laughed when I saw it. Perhaps you don't get the reference?

Then would you care to enlighten us what it does refer to? --Ulkomaalainen 20:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how graphic I can get here, so I will include this link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coin%20purse -- The placement of said coin purse is in the position a man's "coin purse" would be.

So, can we have easter eggs that are visual gags (without being a 'reference'), like the teddy bears performing various sexual acts in Fallout 3? That would seem to be the question. Upon further review of some of the discussions above, I would say 'no' to my own question and argue that this is not an 'easter egg' for the purposes of this page - just a little sight gag (at best). DeeLow 21:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Then you should change the definition of easter egg on that page.

You are right (and I got where the coinpurse was, although I think it is most probably not intended, need to see whether it always sits there or is just an effect of random physical movement). Actually, as of the numerous discussions on the talk page it was established more or less that "Easter Eggs" on the definition of this page should only be references and not jokes or extra play possibilities (like the usual discussion goes - I was referring to that with my last comment as well). But apparently the definition on the page itself has not been updated to reflect that. --Ulkomaalainen 22:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Fafhrd and the Gray-Mouser

This was mentioned earlier by Lukish but was passed over... [1] Considering the evidence of anagrams,which greatly minimizes the chance of an accidental reference. In addition the character types indicates clear evidence of an outside reference (at least to me) original post... In the Ratway the first enemies you meet are a sneaky looking fellow and a barbarian type called Drahff and Hewnon Black-Skeever. Drahff is an anagram of Fafhrd, black-skeever=gray-mouser and Hewnon is an anagram of Nehwon, the world in which Fafhrd and the Gray-Mouser live. Added. Lukish_ Tlk Cnt 23:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC) Judoka 00:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Sounds convincing to me. --Ulkomaalainen 01:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed - it's a slam-dunk. DeeLow 21:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Since no one else has acted on this or disagreed in a week, I went ahead and added it to the main page. DeeLow 21:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Possible Bathory reference?

The quest Blood on the Ice, about a mass killing of several people, reminded me of the Bathory album Blood on Ice which starts with the massacre of a Viking village. Looking up "blood on the ice" only directs one to this quest, the Bathory album, or ice hockey injuries; considering that it's not common for hockey players to be murdered in the rink, could this be considered as a candidate for the "Swedish Metal" section? 70.53.227.144 09:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Mm, I kind of doubt it. Can you give any more evidence to suggest a connection? ThuumofReason 18:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, there seems to be an underlying Swedish Metal theme in some of this stuff, which would make sense (with Sweden being a Nord country and Metal bands often having an affinity towards High Fantasy), so I would think a mere sentence like this would be easier to justify than any odd Michael Jackson reference. On the other hand, it is a bit of a generic phrase. If we could show that the pattern runs deeper than just a few odd songs (like e.g. in Fallout New Vegas where basically every quest was a pun on some song title). --Ulkomaalainen 18:47, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The Princess Bride

I blelieve I heard Brynjolf of the theifs guild will say "to the pain then" in combat, a refernce to the princess bride 108.192.128.137 16:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Monty Python Killer Rabbit?

I was just wandering around near the beginning of the game, and got to one of the random encounter zones (SE of Anise's house) And i saw two bandits and a rabbit running towards each other. They tried to attack it, swung their weapons a few times, then both died for no apparent reason! However, when i got to the bodies, the rabbit had already gone.

Unless this was some really wierd glitch, i'd say that is a referance to the Killer Rabbit from Monty Python & the Holy Grail. 109.154.137.200 19:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd want to see a couple independent sources confirm that random encounter, but given what you describe, it sounds plausible. Having said that, I've had a dead dragon fall out of the sky with no warning and a follower sliding around like she is on some kind of ultra-luge, so a couple of bandits dropping dead for no apparent reason would hardly be surprising on its own. DeeLow 22:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

This isn't a reference, it's pretty common to come across npc's fighting each other. ThuumofReason 22:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Except for the fact that Rabbits cannot fight. They are (as foxes, goats or deer) entirely passive creatures that will only flee but never attack. What could happen, though, is that a rabbit is fleeing danger A, directly running into danger B. Would not explain the bandits dying (well, danger A, but 109.154 is likely to have noticed that if it was there). --Ulkomaalainen 22:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe not an easter egg, but still...

Whenever I think of Paarthurnax, it reminds me of Draco, the dragon from Dragonheart. Both are misunderstood, gentle creatures (who can talk to humans), both end up helping the protagonist and both are hunted down by ignorant fanatics. I really can't tell if Bethesda drew any inspiration from the movie, but I just wanted to put it out there... 74.14.183.68 01:14, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Truth ore consequences

Could this quest be a reference to that American quiz show Truth or Consequences? -- Durradan^IV 17:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Certainly, or more precisely to the teenage party game which was itself referenced by the game show. --Ulkomaalainen 21:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

^No, you're thinking of "Truth or Dare". "Truth Ore Consequences" is a name created by the writer of that article; the in-game quest is a miscellaneous objective, and has no actual title, so it doesn't qualify for inclusion on this page. ThuumofReason 21:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Dark Souls

Dark Souls is a Conjuration perk that makes your undead stronger; it is also a game (which has been compared to Skyrim) in which you play as an undead. 70.30.90.79 22:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I personally don't see the relevance. It sounds like a generic necromantic spell name to me. ES^T•E•C 23:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

William Blake (Proverbs of Hell)

In Avanchnzel there is an Argonian named "Watches-the-Roots." This is a reference to William Blake's work, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell." Specifically, a "Proverb of Hell" which states: "The rat, the mouse, the fox, the rabbet; watch the roots; the lion, the tyger, the horse, the elephant, watch the fruits." Because the quest for Avanchnzel concerns returning an ancient lexicon and The Marriage of Heaven and hell is primarily concerned with sociological epistemology, forbidden knowledge, and ancient sources for knowledge, it is doubtful this is unintentional. Can this reference please be inserted into the page? Some people at Bethesda have class.

To further back up this assertion, the effect Ancient Knowledge is given to the Dragonborn at the end of the quest which is called Unfathomable Depths. Here is a quote from Marriage of Heaven and Hell, very similar to the idea of the extinct Dwemner's artifact getting out into the world:

"I was in a Printing house in Hell & saw the method in which knowledge is transmitted from generation to generation. In the first chamber was a Dragon-Man, clearing away the rubbish from a cave's mouth; within, a number of Dragons were hollowing the cave. In the second chamber was a Viper folding round the rock & the cave, and others adorning it with gold silver and precious stones. In the third chamber was an Eagle with wings and feathers of air: he caused the inside of the cave to be infinite, around were numbers of Eagle like men, who built palaces in the immense cliffs. In the fourth chamber were Lions of flaming fire raging around & melting the metals into living fluids. In the fifth chamber were Unnam'd forms, which cast the metals into the expanse. There they were reciev'd by Men who occupied the sixth chamber, and took the forms of books & were arranged in libraries."

Furthermore, the last room in Avanchnzel is the "Boilery," potentially playing on the idea that hell is a very hot place. And, additionally, since Blake equates knowledge with a path to hell, this may help explain why From-Deepest-Fathoms wishes to be rid of the Lexicon in the first place.

Bloomingdedalus 01:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

You had me at "watches the roots". While your elaboration here is helpful and appreciated, the note on the page is ... long. Really, really long. If the note were a corpse, you should try to chop off the legs, arms, and most of the torso without mutilating it so much that family members couldn't identify it. That metaphor went to a strange place, but I trust you get the point. Minor Edits 07:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I got you, however, the entire quest seems to be allegorically based on the text of Blake's work, which is pretty interesting to people who are fans of his work. There's even a description about looking down into a giant abyss of spiders in the Marriage of Heaven and Hell. In Avanchenzel, you enter a room with a skeleton looking over a pit with 4-5 dwarven spiders at the bottom. One of the most deeply allusive Easter Eggs in the game apparently.... "unfathomably deep." Ok, I'm done now. Best to you. Bloomingdedalus 00:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

One more thing: there are so many things about this quest which specifically appear in The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, that I would hazard to guess that the "Lexicon" represents Aristotle's Analytics given the fact that Blake goes on a quest in his text, and, at the end, this is the book he acquires. Analytics being the foundation of logic for western civilization. Bloomingdedalus 01:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

However that may be, and I am not one to judge, since I do not know William Blake's works (being a German, maybe you'll excuse me for that): the idea of this page is to give ideas about what is referenced (William Blake) and how it is referenced, but only on general terms. So telling about the reference should be enough - those familiar with Blake's work will know what to look for, those not would not give a hot potato (or whatever else) about the details anyway. So I think you tend to go a tad over the top in your descriptions, as much as I can understand your enjoyment of the details put into it, they are of not much use here. --Ulkomaalainen 03:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. You may abridge as you please. Most Americans don't know it either, in fact, most people unfamiliar with literature are unfamiliar with it. I was a little over-zealous in describing a reference of literary quality, not Indiana Jones, Hangover, or Star Wars, in Skyrim. Bloomingdedalus 03:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Moved from Article

• During the execution of Roggvir, someone in the crowd yells "Get on with it!" This is another possible reference to a recurring joke in Monty Python productions.

I may have missed a discussion in the archives, but that's a pretty common phrase. And it's not like various people in the crowd were saying it over and over. If there's no more to suggest a connection (and I don't believe there is, having seen the event multiple times), I don't think it should be listed. If nothing else, "possible references" are not what this page is for. ThuumofReason 21:34, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Legend of Zelda

I found a dead High Elf in a spike pit outside Halted Stream Camp in Whiterun. It was dressed in green clothes and a green hood. From the back it looked like Link. SulfuricLeech 03:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Has been noted before. However, it is (IMO) just a superficial similarity, also apparently the clothes set he wears is random, so he's not necessarily green. --Ulkomaalainen 11:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Silver Hand

Silver Hand, the organization of werewolf hunters, is similar at least in name to the Knights of the Silver Hand of the Warcraft universe. However, while the Knights are a highly disciplined order of Paladins dedicated to defending the populace from manifestations of demons and living dead, the Silver Hand in Skyrim is overzealous in their mission to hunt down werewolves by attacking on sight and behaving like pillagers more or less (somewhat reminiscent to the Scarlet Crusade's mentality of "He might be undead...kill 'em just to make sure.") Silver is indeed a material traditionally associated with being lethal against lycanthropes, but would you reckon that naming an organization the "Silver Hand" is in any way a nod to Warcraft's famed organization with a similar name? 70.53.220.151 18:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I would not. ThuumofReason 18:36, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

That's questionable. Opinions? -ES^T•E•C 20:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Not without further supporting evidence. The organizations seem to be different (though it could be a "Take That" by someone not liking the Silver Hand of Warcraft), Silver as said is traditionally used as an aid against the undead and "The Something Hand" is not singular either. So while possible, it still can be invented as a name independently. The thing I see most in favor is that it is hard to imagine nobody of the programmers knowing of the other SH. --Ulkomaalainen 23:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Hard to imagine it as a "take that" jibe given the universal appeal of the Knights of the Silver Hand amongst Warcraft players (if anything, might be an homage of sorts), but it's true that the two organizations are pretty much similar in name only and have quite different modus operandi. That being said, it's more likely that the former inspired the latter than the Companions being based on Worgen in any way. 70.53.220.151 01:03, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, if Silver Hand is an allusion to Warcraft, it is likely to help set Bethesda's games in contrast to Blizzards. Though the contrast in mythology and ideology is already stark. I played WoW for several years, though I must admit I never played regular Warcraft games. Bethesda's content is consistently more adult, erudite, and astute than Blizzard's. Any person who has spent a good deal of time studying literature would note the superiority of literary technique of Bethesda's stories over those of Blizzard's. Bloomingdedalus 13:25, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Forgive me, but can you explain further what you are saying. I fail to see how Bethesda would make an egg referencing two fairly similar organizations in order to set their games "in contrast to Blizzard's". And as for the statement about the literary superiority of Bethesda, I think that can be debated because both games have very well written and detailed stories, so it would be, in my opinion, a close call on superiority. ES^T•E•C 23:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Blizzard and Bethesda are the difference between Star Wars and Robert Heinlein, one of them makes a lot more money, the other is quality. That is all. (Or maybe Steven King vs. Franz Kafka?) One tells stories, the other makes art. Here, this might explain Bethesda's perspective on "The Silver Hand," who are apparently Paladins, from Blizzard: "One day when our people were in such awful distress because the witch commission were afraid to proceed against the astrologer and Father Peter's household, or against any, indeed, but the poor and the friendless, they lost patience and took to witch-hunting on their own score, and began to chase a born lady who was known to have the habit of curing people by devilish arts, such as bathing them, washing them, and nourishing them instead of bleeding them and purging them through the ministrations of a barber-surgeon in the proper way. She came flying down, with the howling and cursing mob after her, and tried to take refuge in houses, but the doors were shut in her face. They chased her more than half an hour, we following to see it, and at last she was exhausted and fell, and they caught her. They dragged her to a tree and threw a rope over the limb, and began to make a noose in it, some holding her, meantime, and she crying and begging, and her young daughter looking on and weeping, but afraid to say or do anything. They hanged the lady, and I threw a stone at her, although in my heart I was sorry for her; but all were throwing stones and each was watching his neighbor." - Mark Twain The difference is Blizzard tells stories of Good vs. Evil. Bethesda really does not, they've learned from History on what those terms mean and the effects they have. Bloomingdedalus 08:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

More appropriately, I would see it as Bethesda saying to Blizzard, regarding Blizzard's writing, as Shakespeare wrote: "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Bloomingdedalus 15:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

You seem to put a lot of thought behind your points, though they remain quite convoluted. I'm not sure what the Mark Twain quote helped achieve, but if anything, the brutal modus operandi it alludes to is closer to the Scarlet Crusade than to the Knights of the Silver Hand. Oh well, moving on. 65.92.21.216 20:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The point of it is, that simply calling something "holy" does not make it so, a point Bethesda frequently recognizes, and Blizzard frequently ignores. Honestly, with the way the Undead are in the Warcraft Universe, the Scarlet Crusade may be actually doing good. Regardless of the fact that the Horde ones are not Scourge, they have no redeeming value. There are clear good and evil lines reinforced in Blizzard's games, there are few in Bethesda. Bloomingdedalus 01:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Barbas = Gaspode the Wonder Dog?

Skyrim:Barbas resembles Gaspode, the cynical talking dog from the Discworld novel series by Terry Pratchett. The hunting dogs in Skyrim all match the physical description of Gaspode; it's possible that the quest author saw the resemblance and, when writing a talking dog character, based Barbas's personality on the character of Gaspode.

The particular choice of spoken accent for Barbas's voice (note that Pratchett is a British author, and Gaspode hangs out with a group of street beggars, which is reflected in their dialect), along with his mannerisms and his repeated line "woof" (which matches what Gaspode does), makes this a strong possibility IMO. I'm curious to know if anyone else thinks this is notable or indeed an Easter Egg worthy of addition to the page. - Fyda 01:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Barbas was in the Elder Scrolls lore since Daggerfall. We also had to deal with him in Quests in Redguard and Oblivion. Also he plays a role in The Lord of Souls. So he is no easter egg. --09:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

But did he resemble at all or speak like Gaspode before? His resemblance would be the easter egg. -- 216.223.234.113 04:34, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I actually do not see the resemblance that much. Gaspode is described as a small dog whereas dogs in Skyrim are of the "normal" (i.e. more or less wolf) size. Also Gaspode is a mongrel with asymmetric features while the Skyrim dogs are (lore wise) a breed and symmetric. A line like "Woof" also ist used often for subtitling a dog's bark (alternatively, as in Skyrim, a descriptor like "(barks)", but has Gaspode ever truly barked?). --Ulkomaalainen 11:49, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I dont see the resemblance either. Gaspodes size isnt that big a deal but in he is disease and flea ridden, and behaves nothing like Barbas. Coming from a Pratchett fan their is nothing that resembles the two except for the fact that they are both talking dogs.

Game of Thrones/Song of ice and fire reference

There is an npc in Dawnstar called Horik Halfhand. I think it is a nod to the Song of ice and fire character 'Qhorin Halfhand'. — Unsigned comment by 92.8.30.56 (talk) on 7 January 2011

Any other similarities beside the surname? --Killfetzer 15:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Could be, since there are a lot of things ressembling, for example, that witch Melisande in Oblivion is from Ice and Fire too

Well, unless you can give us some that apply specifically to this instance, we can't consider it for inclusion. ThuumofReason 19:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

There is also Mercer Frey. In SoIaF the Frey's betrayed the Starks at the Red Wedding. Mercer Frey obviously also betrayed the Thieves Guild murdering Gallus. These all seem to be slight nods towards it. None are are more than superficially similar, but still are obvious enough to stand out. When I saw Horik Halfhand I thought it was exactly the same til I went back to the book.

If they're not more than superficially similar, then we have nothing more to discuss. ThuumofReason 19:25, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Robin Hood

• During the quest "Boethiah's Calling" you can find a dead NPC in Robin Hood's clothing in a cell at Knifepoint Ridge.

This was pulled from the page, because I believe I have seen this outfit in at least a couple places. Is his outfit particularly unique? I will get on my SR to check it further, but before its re-inclusion, I just wanted a second opinion. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 19:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

• • Is this the same random outfit that others have claimed is a reference to Link from The Legend of Zelda? If so, it is not fixed to the location/quest noted and is random, so really can't be an Easter egg. 68.148.98.182 23:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Stange glyphs all around the cities in Skyrim.....

Alright, this has bugged me for some time now, and as i have not seeen any mention to them before now i will ask here. All across the main cities in Skyrim, mostly on or around buildings, or just in sight, are these little circle things with varrying lines in them, as well as a few triangles here and there, the easiest triangle to find is just inside Whiterun, jump iunder the bridge at the entrace. Any thought on what these little symbols are for?

Those are shadowmarks, they are symbols used by the Thieves Guild. See this page for more information. They aren't Easter Eggs or anything special. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 22:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

A further nod to Shawshank?

In the Abandoned Prison, the prisoner's plan is to escape during a strong storm, through a drainage way under the prison to a river outside of the prison walls. This escape plan (e.g., route and timing) sounds very similar to Andy Dufresne's. While it may not be "five hundred yards of sh*t smelling foulness" -- there IS a small pool of brownish water just before exiting the prison into the river via the drainage route!--Dräggo 23:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like it could work to me.ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 23:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Seconded. ThuumofReason 12:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Dwemer Puzzle Cube

Another easter egg, just like Dwemer Puzzle Box in Morrowind, this is the reference to Hellraiser movies and Lament Configuration puzzle box.

No. ThuumofReason 12:10, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah..... no. Commentaholic 17:52, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Last Wish

In Swindler's Den, about half way in, one can find a skeleton on a stack of hay reaching out for a bottle of ale - his dying wish? ;) Screenshot -- Tiax 21:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Even if it is, that alone doesn't make it an Easter Egg. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 22:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Umm... let me quote the article: "Easter Eggs are secrets that the developers put in games to give people a laugh when they find them[...]" - this certainly fits that criteria... A skeleton in such an absurd pose was obviously put in to give people finding such a detail at least a smile! -- Tiax 22:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

If we were to add everything like that the page would go on for hours. Good find though, I don't think it is really an easter egg although a note on the page describing it should definately be added.RIM 22:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is the definition of an Easter Egg, and to be honest, I doubt this follows the criteria at all. It hits amusing, for sure, but one point out of the list doesn't work for me. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 22:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

No denying this is a minor detail, especially since it has no cultural/historical/societal reference - just felt it was worth noting. I added this and the William Tell thing from the article to the Location's "Notes" section for now. -- Tiax 23:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the Easter Eggs are actually put on each individual page. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 23:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, the articles are made to describe the actual places - I don't see any reason why stuff like that should not be noted there. It's the case here as well. -- Tiax 23:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

(←) Well, I don't know why it's on that page either, and I am tempted to remove it later. To my knowledge, the Easter Eggs shouldn't be on each individual page. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 18:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Beowulf

The temple/sanctuary of the Gray Beards, High Hrothgar, is definitely a reference to the king in the story of Beowulf, Hrothgar, who lived in a great hall, Heorot. Beowulf is a story of Scandinavian origins (aka vikings), which the Nords are clearly modeled after.

Hrothgar is generally a Danish/Nordish king of legend, not restricted to Beowulf. --Ulkomaalainen 13:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

The Shining

In the quest laid to rest, the ghost of the little girl, Helgi, says that the woman would play forever and ever. Reference from the shining movie scene, where the two little girls says to play forever and ever. — Unsigned comment by 177.35.62.155 (talk) at 07:48 on 14 January 2012

The Fishstick

In the quest, Mind of Madness, Sheogorath says "Do you mind? I'm busy doing the Fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!" This is very likely a reference to the Fishstick, a "minimalist dance" described by the alternative comedy podcast You Look Nice Today in the episode Sacks-Minnelli Disease. Jghaines 08:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It used to be on the page. Not sure why it's gone. I kind of abandoned this page to others to preserve what's left of my sanity. Minor Edits 08:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It was removed in this edit, apparently because the Fishstick is an ongoing thing in TES games, and the note at the time had attributed it to a podcast joke. I think the note had previously said that it was a joke from the official forums. Even if the reason for its removal is true, it seems like it should then be on the Historical References page. Not mentioning it on one of these two pages seems wrong to me, as there's clearly some kind of reference being made here. Minor Edits 09:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not from older games but a running joke on the forums, probably that's why it's not mentioned in the historical references. More information can be found here. --Ulkomaalainen 10:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

So, can we assume then that you're withdrawing any objection to the Fishstick being mentioned here? Minor Edits 11:09, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Not really (not that I am the one to decide, though). It is not an external reference. At the moment the MO of this page is restricted to external refs - I am not happy with that either (personally I would think things like one of the many "set places" with little optical jokes would be an easter egg in the definition of the phrase used in other places) but for consistency, it does not really belong here as of now. Most of all, it cannot be a reference to a 2008 podcast if it originated already in 2001. --Ulkomaalainen 11:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not supporting the podcast portion of the note, just that there should be some kind of note about Sheogorath's line. If it's a reference to a running joke on a website forum, doesn't that make the reference external to the game for our purposes here? Minor Edits 11:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh yea, the fishstick. Poodleinacan 12:17, 16 january 2012 (UTC)

(←) If there's nothing further, I think it's about time we readd an accurate note about the fishstick. It meets all of our qualifications for an easter egg, as it's a reference to something outside the TES universe embedded in the game for a particular audience. It's the epitome of an easter egg. It's a random line of dialogue players may overlook unless they pester Sheogorath long enough, and even then, they may not understand its meaning. The reference to it in Morrowind is on the Morrowind Easter Egg page. The fact that previous games also had a fishstick reference does not make it a historical reference, so this is the place it's meant to be. Am I missing something? Minor Edits 06:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I concur. The podcast is probably irrelevant (unless someone can find further evidence that it was intended to refer to both the fishy stick and the podcast), but this clearly follows in a chain of easter eggs, as documented on the page Ulko mentioned. And it's definitely an egg, since it refers to something on the official forums. – Robin Hood↝talk 07:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

(After the fact) We're all in agreement here that it is an egg. The only thing we had to discuss is the fact that it comes from the TES/Bethesda surroundings. So it is neither an internal ("Historical") reference nor a real reference to the outside world. So technically under the strict definitions it can be argued that it does not belong here. However, then it would belong nowhere on this Wiki which would be silly as well. So I guess we should re-think the whole arrangement of references and in-game jokes and oddities for the amusement of the player. As of now, I guess a Fallout 3 reference (we haven't found one, but a theoretical one) would go here as well, so Bethesda is probably fair game as long as its not TES for this page. --Ulkomaalainen 11:54, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that anything Bethesda related (such as NPC's named after Bethesda programmers, inside jokes shared by members of the dev team, etc.) is, in fact, a reference to the outside world. DeeLow 20:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The Dragon Priests and The Ringwraiths

So I'm not entirely sure if anyone has noticed this before but the nine named dragon priests are in essence Ringwraiths. There are eight 'lesser' priests and one 'greater' Priest. Each were human at one time with great power and now they continue to live on with a half-life as litches or wraiths. This theory is also solidified by the fact that the mask Konahrik is the only mask that is physically different than the others, not unlike the witch-king's helmet.

Mmm...I don't know...seems kind of iffy to me. ThuumofReason 12:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure about the role of the masks in corrupting and preserving the Dragon Priests. A second doubt for me is that in addition to the 9 there are other, unnamed, priests who similarly survive (without a mask, named or otherwise). On the flip side, there is a 10th mask, which has some mystical power with respect to the other lesser masks, which might be something like the One Ring (though the wooden mask seems to have no power on its own). To me, this is, at best, a potential inspiration rather than an Easter Egg. DeeLow 22:22, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Venomfang Skeever

Any idea where this name came from? Only one other place I've seen the words "venom" and "fang" used as one word is a YouTube Evangelical Persona... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNA-2IS-ugY). Is this a creepy inspiration for Hamelyn? Bloomingdedalus 03:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope. ThuumofReason 12:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope it's not a reference or nope you don't know where the name came from? Specificity friend. Bloomingdedalus 08:01, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Personally it sounds coincidental to me. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 08:03, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

After all, the people who design video games live in prison cells and have no contact or influence from the outside world. But I did find a good deal of "venomfangs" out there. It is interesting that this is the only place they exist, as well as that they coincide with a reference to the pied piper, only, in this case, he's an evil lunatic turning the good mead into food for viscous rats. I do think this is stretching, regardless, I can't find venomfang skeevers anywhere else. That being said, you are pretty young to understand the ins and outs of the creation of literature by academics, how they think, how they incorporate things from the real world, etc.. Bloomingdedalus 11:06, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I think your posts are long enough without the condescension, and it's certainly not helping your arguments. Quest-specific variants of various creatures are common in TES games, and there's no need to assume a reference is being made with each. "Venomfang" seems to be a rather unimaginative way of connoting that they are poisonous skeevers, nothing more. Minor Edits 11:53, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your information. The level designer was smart enough to name Hamlyn after the pied piper, but too dumb to think up an imaginative name for Skeevers, clearly that is not a contradiction. You take your job of patrolling a site on a video game very seriously, and I take elucidating hidden references in that game seriously as well. The Elder Scrolls deserves serious treatment, as, at least as long as Ken Rolston was involved, it was a serious endeavor. Hence, I tend to be long winded. I am uncomfortable with simply removing things others have said, though, whereas I believe there is a possibility here of a reference to a real life nut-case, it is far from certain. If a patroller would like to remove this section, I find that appropriate. However, I really do believe that William Blake was the inspiration for Unfathomable Depths. As for condescention, a cursory overview of this discussion page will reveal that the mods/patrollers of the wiki certainly have the monopoly on that. Bloomingdedalus 18:21, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Hamelyn was named after the town the Pied Piper harassed. The intelligence of the level designer, or lack thereof, doesn't really matter here. The Pied Piper of Hamelin holds no apparent association with "venomfang". Of the multitude of other media which utilize some variant of the term, you have not offered any substantive reason to think that a reference was being made here to any one of them in particular. We realistically can't go on fishing expeditions to find references for every name in the game.

The more people who enjoy working on the wiki and continue to do so, including yourself, the better it will be for it, so trying to make sure everyone enjoys their time here is the same as taking my "job" seriously. Experienced admins/patrollers such as rpeh (who I believe you described as a "scumbag" elsewhere) have important tasks to complete in their limited amount of time on the wiki, so any responses they may give here (the talk page of a relatively unimportant article) are likely to be terse. Their intention is generally to get their point across as succinctly as possible, not to insult the person they're responding to. Several of your posts, on the other hand, seems to have little purpose beyond belittling others. Instead of arguing against the contributions you disagree with, you target the contributors, and that's what's inappropriate. Demeaning other users does not in any way invalidate their opinions, and you're really just shooting yourself in the foot when you do so, as I can't promise they'll remain impartial towards your contributions. Minor Edits 03:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you misinterpret the story of the Pied Piper as the town first conned him out of a great deal of money they promised him, in return, he murdered their children. Regardless, he disposed of the rats, not bred them. So, the tale has been inverted for some cause. Though, I assume you believe it has no subtext. I wish I could find what it was that angered me from rpeh, this was last summer at some point before I had an account. Of course, if you feel like banning me, you are welcome to do so at any time. I wouldn't expect someone who has been condescended to to be impartial to contributions, which is why I remember rpeh and defended the contributor from his "terse" comment. I don't really see where the easter egg I contributed regarding Blake in Unfathomable Depths is a matter of impartiality or otherwise, as it is quite literally there. I have removed the comment regarding rpeh as I cannot find what initially set me an aversion to this name and he has far too many contributions to sort through which would supersede any offense he may have caused me in the past regardless in my book and certainly in yours. It may have been a regular wikipedia edit that I got into it with him, I don't recall. I would like to know how one is supposed to bring up the William Blake reference. I say "Watches-the-roots" is from the proverb by Blake that states "watch the roots" someone says it's a coincidence, then I provide a large exposition on the reasons I believe it is not a coincidence, and someone says "you're writing too much which doesn't help your case." Bloomingdedalus 05:44, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not misinterpreting, I'm paraphrasing. I've read at least three versions of the Pied Piper story and I'm familiar with the story behind the story and what-have-you (Stuff You Missed in History Class from howstuffworks.com can be very informative), but thank you for once again proving my point. Of course it has subtext, but that subtext does not relate in any meaningful way to the name of Hamelyn's rats. Rpeh has bad days same as anyone else, and easter egg pages have the tendency to bring that out in people. I don't see why you keep bringing up the William Blake argument, as it is not relevant to this discussion. However, I guess it is the only reason I'm having this discussion; if I didn't think you were correct and the note should stay, I would just ignore you and let you marginalize yourself. No matter how sure you are personally that something is an egg, you can't communicate that assurance to doubters with arguments ad hominem. Those kinds of attacks are not only irrelevant (and considering the forum, presumptuous), but can only serve to harm your position. Tailoring both the quality and quantity of your arguments to suit the preferences of the people you're addressing is necessary for persuasive writing.Minor Edits 06:06, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

William Blake

I'm unsure about this William Blake reference. It seems to me that Watches-the-Roots might be a coincidental name for an Argonian, given their attachment to the Hist trees. The reference is a bit obscure, but if anyone else is against removing it then that's fine.

To be honest, I think its a little iffy, myself, and looking at it, it was added before any kind of consensus was made. Each individual piece of it seems entirely coincidental. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 01:54, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Then you would be wrong in my view. William Blake is not obscure, the man sat on economics councils with Thomas Malthus for God's sake. Just because you're not versed in literature doesn't mean Blake is any more obscure than Dostoyevsky. Consider this passage from The Marriage of Heaven and Hell: "I was in a Printing house in Hell & saw the method in which knowledge is transmitted from generation to generation. In the first chamber was a Dragon-Man, clearing away the rubbish from a cave's mouth; within, a number of Dragons were hollowing the cave. In the second chamber was a Viper folding round the rock & the cave, and others adorning it with gold silver and precious stones. In the third chamber was an Eagle with wings and feathers of air: he caused the inside of the cave to be infinite, around were numbers of Eagle like men, who built palaces in the immense cliffs. In the fourth chamber were Lions of flaming fire raging around & melting the metals into living fluids. In the fifth chamber were Unnam'd forms, which cast the metals into the expanse. There they were reciev'd by Men who occupied the sixth chamber, and took the forms of books & were arranged in libraries." There are several of these symbols which appear very clearly in the quest. First: Watches-the-Roots is an Argonian, you specifically have to walk through a cave to reach Avanchnzel and Watches-the-Roots specifically mentions that they had to tunnel through a cave to get to Avanchnzel. Hence, "A dragon-man, clearing away the rubbish from a cave's mouth." Second: Watches-the-Roots states that Avanchnzel is a library despite the fact that there isn't a single book in the whole place, except Racial Phylogeny, which was apparently brought in after the Dwemer extinction, hence "took the form of books and were arranged in libraries." Third: "Ancient Knowledge" improves Smithing, "cast metals into the expanse, which took the forms of books." Normally, even with dwarves, one would expect "knowledge" in a fantasy game to be connected with magic schools, not smithing. Fourth: There is a skeleton at the top of the giant room with a pit with four spiders at the bottom and two vats of crimson flame below the skeleton on the rocks. The skeleton specifically appears to be peering down into the pit. Blake recieves a vision from hell in his book: "we beheld the infinite Abyss ... beneath us at an immense distance, was the sun, black but shining; round it were fiery tracks on which revolv'd vast spiders, crawling after their prey; which flew, or rather swum, in the infinite deep .... we discover'd two globes of crimson fire, from which the sea fled away in clouds of smoke; and now we saw, it was the head of Leviathan" (screenshot) Fifth: perhaps most disturbingly, the only book in this quest for "Ancient Knowledge" in this place is "Racial Phylogeny," you'll just have to read The Marriage of Heaven and Hell for that one, because I'm not discussing it here. (I removed a probably incorrect interpretation of the etymology of animoncultory) Now, there are certainly some of these claims you may regard as coincidental. However, please tell me what "watching the roots" means where the phrase would emerge spontaneously without connecting it back to William Blake's proverb "The rat, the mouse, the fox, the rabbet; watch the roots; the lion, the tyger, the horse, the elephant, watch the fruits." From-deepest-fathoms even refers to one of their party, Drennen, as a "field-mouse" when he runs off in Avanchnzel. For myself, I think the evidence is highly in favor of a comparison with Blake or I would not have made it. I would suggest reading the text for yourself and replaying the quest: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/blake_ma.html. You are welcome to dispute it, but please provide some other explanation for the name "watches-the-roots," because it's not arbitrary any more than "From-Deepest-Fathoms" is arbitrary.

The mark of artistry vs. entertainment is best summed up by the statement by Douglas Goodall about Ken Rostlen, the lead designer of Morrowind and Oblivion, found in this interview: " Sinder Velvin: Can you remember any other rules that Ken Rolston had? Douglas Goodall: There were quite a few of them, but since I didn't understand most of them, this is something you ought to ask Ken if you get the chance. The only ones I'm sure I understood were "no betrayal" and "everything must be a metaphor/everything must be based on something." " Honestly, I believe it's up for debate, and I understand that the Argonians are "people of the root." But, "watches-the-roots" is a very strange image (considering roots are typically underground) considering the other parallels to Blake in this.

Finally, we are reminded by splash-screens that Vivec scorned the Dwemer's worship of logic and reason. Blake, at the end of his vision, seizes the angel who has taken him to hell saying that the vision of hell was a vision owing solely to the angel's metaphysics, and decides to show the angel his ultimate fate. Here it is slightly abridged: " "Here," said I, "is your lot, in this space, if space it may be call'd." Soon we saw the stable and the church, & I took him to the altar and open'd the Bible, and lo! it was a deep pit, into which I descended driving the Angel before me, soon we saw seven houses of brick; one we enter'd; ... we went into the mill, & I in my hand brought the skeleton of a body, which in the mill was Aristotle's Analytics." Analytics by Aristotle is western civilization's foundation for logic, describing deductive reasoning, scientific reasoning, the syllogism, and logical fallacies. But, both Blake and Vivec criticize a culture based purely on logic, Blake noting, it is but "the skeleton of a body." Are you sure these things are just coincidence and not "unfathomable depth?" I'll tell you one thing, if I were a level designer, and I'm going to call a quest "Unfathomable Depths," I sure as hell am not going to make it superficial.

There are large bodies of artwork which all contain subtle subtexts written in by the authors. I could go into Freemasonry influences in TES, but that would take a long time. Not all Easter Eggs are written into games strictly so that the average user can observe them. Take for example the very first word the Dovahkiin learns, "fus" or "Force." Any person setting out to make a vast fictional mythology in the contemporary era who doesn't pick up "Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry" is a damned fool. The Dovahkiin first learns the word "force" before he is summoned by the elusive graybeards on the mountains. Morals and Dogma starts with this sentence: "FORCE, unregulated or ill-regulated, is not only wasted in the void, like that of gunpowder burned in the open air, and steam unconfined by science; but, striking in the dark, and its blows meeting only the air, they recoil and bruise itself" - Albert Pike. Only idiots and opportunists write literature with zero subtext. I play Bethesda games because they are neither. Bloomingdedalus 08:43, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow, you are clearly deeply invested in this BD. While I would agree that the name "Watches-the-Roots" is extremely suggestive of a connection with the proverb you cite, I am not wholly convinced with respect to the depth of the parallels that you are asserting. However, your approach to this issue leaves no room for discussion, as you appear to view anyone who is not fully in agreement with your assertions to be a damned fool, or worse. I ask you: does a firm perswasion that a thing is so, make it so? Of course not. Why is it so important for you to 'prove' to the rest of us that this particular quest is so deeply intertwined with The Marriage of Heaven and Hell? And why stop there? Why not illustrate some elliptical references to Swedenborg while you're at it? DeeLow 22:03, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

People are disputing my assertion, so I am defending it. But, if you would like me to project some more allusions to Blake which probably aren't there, I can do so: --- "They say that Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the high king, with his voice!" - "The voice of indignant honesty is the voice of God" - William Blake --- "The man who was so loved in life became worshipped in death. Indeed, it can be argued that Talos, the Ninth Divine, became even more important than the Eight that had preceded him, at least to humans. For he was a god who was once just a man, and through great deeds actually managed to ascend to godhood." - The Talos Mistake - "If Jesus was the greatest man, you ought to love him to the highest degree." - William Blake --- "Empire is no more, now the lion and the wolf shall cease" - William Blake.

However, I don't argue these are necessarily connections because I focused on one quest where Blake does appear to come into play. If people want to dispute it, that's perfectly fine, but I laid out my argument, more than once. In response to your "firm perswation make it so" the proper response is that some "believe that to be so." My investment in this is that this Easter Egg page is embarrassing for Bethesda, because it seems that they have nothing but a bunch of illiterate geeks working for them who know nothing of the world other than Star Wars, the Hangover and Indiana Jones, with one guy who knows Roman History thrown in, and I just know that isn't the case. Plus, I like Blake.

We know there is an obvious Darmok allusion in Skyrim, so at least one person on their staff is familiar with the concept of speaking in a mythological language that only those familiar with the mythology would understand. Bethesda's GECK and Construction Sets are easy enough to use that a half-wit could make professional content from it. Why would they hire run-of-the-mill geeks when to do what people educated in literature, myth and religion could just as easily do? They rarely shy away from including very serious themed content in their games, which is what makes them unique among most game companies. Bloomingdedalus 00:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

(←) Great comparisons, but I don't think there's any need to condemn the page for not listing them or to look down on those who aren't familiar with Blake. References to high literature are generally more allusive and harder to pin down than Star Wars gags, so it'll probably take more time and analysis before posts like yours start appearing around the Wiki.

So putting the tone aside, I do think it's safe to say that the writers of the game have definitely made connections to Blake. You made a particularly good catch with the point on Dwemer 'logic and reason', Blake always championed poets through figures like Los, and Vivec is described as a Warrior-Poet. As much as I enjoy reading these, though, I'm not sure this fits with the criteria of an 'Easter Egg', this sort of thing is far too detailed. Maybe the quest you mentioned can be listed as it contains a few direct, named references, but something like this calls for its own page. 'Lore:Writing', or 'General:Writing'? The Wiki seems to make room for all sorts of content under 'General', so I don't see why literary criticism shouldn't be there, too. Until then, have you considered making a personal sandbox page for this kind of thing? --Admos 14:10, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that you're asserting a level of depth to this allusion that doesn't make sense. Like a conspiracy theorist, you're seeing patterns and making connections that are not visible to a typical person. Likewise, you're ignoring the absence of what SHOULD be there if your underlying hypothesis is correct. Namely, that the person who named Watches-the-roots used The Marriage of Heaven and Hell as an inspiration for the entire Dwemer ruin and the related quest. I've read Blake, and I don't see it. Some of the things I think you're ignoring:

1. A central tenet of Blake's philosophy is what he sees as the false separation of body and soul: "The notion that a body distinct from his soul is to be expunged". Why then would the quest designer advance the quest story using disembodied souls, rather than another method such as the journals that Bethesda often uses? Further, when the nature of souls is so clearly separate from the body in the Elder Scrolls universe (you can capture souls in gems, for goodness sake!), why would someone try to mash this dead poet's philosophy into this game world?

2. Why is there only one allusion to the work in the names of the deceased adventurers? Why don't the other members of the party take names from Blake's works?

3. You assert that the Argonian represents Blake's 'dragon man' clearing the rubbish away from the cave. This in a game heavily populated with both actual dragons and dragon-worshipping-men (or at least their undead remnants), the dragon priests; a game where virtually everything is accessed through a cave opening. But if the Argonian is the dragon-man, then where is the viper, the eagle, the lions of flaming fire?

I agree with you that Watches-the-roots is most likely a reference to Blake's proverb of Hell. Can't we just leave it there? As much as you argue that there is deep literary meaning to everything that Bethesda does, this is the same company that posed countless teddybears drinking, gambling and performing sex acts in Fallout 3. While I could invent some high-minded explanation for that choice, I am satisfied with the explanation that one or more level designers thought it was funny. It's interesting to me that you bring up the Darmok reference. In Skyrim, the reference is limited, I think quite strictly, to the name of the NPC. At most, this NPC represents one of many people that requests a gift (the giving of a gift being the allegorical meaning of the phrase "Temba, his arms wide".) Another example is the two rogues outside the Ragged Flagon, who clearly reference Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. It's a cute little nod to a seminal swords and sorcery series. If your hypothesis about the literary depth of Bethesda's work is correct, then these games should be absolutely littered with references comparable to what you assert for Watches-the-roots. Again, I don't see it. This is not to say that The Elder Scrolls is not the most deeply realized video-game world in existence. I believe that it clearly is, and that it draws on inspiration from all kinds of literary sources, but in so doing, becomes a self-perpetuating system. While there are certainly some clear literary references and allusions in Bethesda games (Hackdirt and the Deep Ones resonate for me from Oblivion), these are quite clear, distinct and obvious to those familiar with the works. I think I've put more effort into this than the discussion probably deserves, but I'll leave you with this: Thy phantasy has imposed upn me & thou oughtest to be ashamed. We impose on one another & it is but lost time to converse with you whose works are only Analytics. Opposition is true Friendship. DeeLow 18:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Headless Horseman Chasing His Horse

Hi all, a little while ago I was running down some road in the Reach during nighttime and I saw a bluish spectral horse running down the road at me. I paused and saw that a headless spectral man was chasing after said horse not twenty paces behind. Has anyone else come across this?? I wish I had marked the exact road, all I know is it was beside a river in a canyon in the Reach area.

Thanks!

There is a headless horseman around, but I have never heard of him chasing after the horse. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 04:24, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the Headless Horseman page, that was definitely him. Kinda figured there was only one decapitated rider, him being dismounted must have been just another bug. I thought it was pretty good though, quite the funny sight

I also saw him chasing after his horse. I was on the road between Riverwood and Falkreath near the river heading towards Falkreath. He was running past me and up the hill, I was a noob and unable to keep up for more than a laugh or two.

Potential Magic: the Gathering Reference

I noticed when fighting Krosis the Dragon Priest that he shares his name with Crosis the Purger, a legendary dragon from Magic: the Gathering's Weatherlight Saga storyline. Could Krosis be named in homage to such a creature? Arcanist 08:27, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

He could, but he isn't, as far as common sense can determine. Krosis is also the dragon word for "I'm sorry" or something like that, so...ThuumofReason 12:44, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Fallout 3 Sweetroll

In the beginning of Fallout 3, when it is your birthday, Butch tries to steal your Sweetroll. NPC's in Skyrim will sometimes say "What's wrong boy, somebody steal your sweetroll?"

The sweetroll has been in nearly every ES game since Arena, where it was part of a question you have to answer. It has continued to be in ES games since. Good reference though. RIM 22:38, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

The sweetroll thing has been mentioned multiple times in the archives too. ThuumofReason 12:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I think we've reached the point where we can just revert the creation of new sweetroll sections here. If the anons won't take the time to check the archives or historical references page, I don't see why we should take the time to properly respond to them. Minor Edits 21:28, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Or we can make a header on the top of each new talk page for here saying that we are aware of sweetrolls, star wars, etc. Basically everything that is easy to find, or irrelevant. That's my opinion. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 22:14, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Second. Minor Edits 22:19, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

And we will have to throw in Harry Potter. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 22:23, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Just because they are easy to find why are they not part of this list? I am not sure why one excludes the other and was unaware that some level of 'out there' was required for it to be an Easter-Egg. Seems an all inclusive source of information should be, all inclusive. — Unsigned comment by 66.104.241.18 (talk) at 22:28 on January 19, 2012

The sweetroll is just one example of something which we've addressed repeatedly, but which users still bring up repeatedly without checking our conversations. What we're discussing is making a notification for the top of this talk page to essentially explain that certain topics have already been rejected as eggs, so don't waste your time proposing them again. To see why the sweetroll specifically is not mentioned here (and it's not because it's easy to find), please peruse the archives. As we've alluded to, this has been discussed to death. Minor Edits 22:50, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Had an idea and tried it out (see version history of this page) but it has disadvantages, so I undid. But maybe that's something to work from? --Ulkomaalainen 00:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I made a notice on this page. This is a rough draft, and anyone with an idea is welcome to edit it until its to everyone's standard for inclusion. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 01:41, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I made a couple edits and ended up changing way more than I set out to. Sorry, it just got away from me. I wanted to make it as idiot-proof as possible. I don't think any of the changes I made are potentially controversial, except potentially my addition that "broad cultural parallels" shouldn't be considered easter eggs, which is my summation of that meandering William Wallace/stormcloak eyesore. I also explained why the examples were not considered easter eggs, but I don't think those reasons for barring them are disputed at this point. I don't really understand the meaning of "Easter Eggs related to things from past Elder Scrolls games belong on the appropriate game's page.", so I didn't touch it, but I think it could use a tweak or two for clarity. Minor Edits 02:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

(←) It would probably be better to link to the archives by linking each discussion that seems to pop up. That would most likely be better than a wall of text that I am sure no one will read. elliot (talk) 02:34, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

"Easter Eggs related to past Elder Scrolls" and so on is referring to the East Empire/East India Company issue, I think. While a wall of text in here should not be the answer, I think maybe an explanatory wall of text (similar to the one I made) linked to via a short and concise note at the top of this page could help. There you could also insert links. --Ulkomaalainen 02:39, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Minor Edits, What I meant was that, if for example, an Easter Egg could be found in the name Balmora, then it belongs in the Morrowind namespace, not on Skyrim, assuming there is a reference to the name. Its just an example, and yes, it should be cleaned up a bit. I will entrust that to you though, because I am getting off for a while. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 02:43, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, you go ... get off. You set me up for these things? Anyways, I just removed that line in an attempt to address elliot's concerns; I think trying to clarify that in a snippet within the header could possibly create more confusion for those who do take the time to read the notice, and more people may take the time to read the notice if it's a sentence shorter. I don't know how many good example discussions are left to link to in the archives. It's hard to predict what topics people are likely to bring up again, the discussions linked to should be fairly accurate, and we have to be careful with each to send the right message. Oftentimes, the relevant comments related to one topic are spread out over several discussions, so linking to just one could give someone the false impression that there's more debate to be had. Minor Edits 03:03, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

(←) Me? Set you up? Nonsense. Every editor needs a break to take care of real world issues and score some Skyrim time. If you didn't do it, I would have eventually. But you seemed interested in the project so I suggested it to you. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 03:33, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I'd rather see it put up sooner than later—if we feel there are other wording tweaks that need to be made, we can do that as we go. – Robin Hood↝talk 05:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I'll go ahead and post the notice. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 23:39, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

Right in the very beginning after you run into the set of Giant Spiders and dispatching them, Hadvar (Not sure about the other person as I can not bring myself to side with the storm cloaks :)) says 'What's next, a giant snake?'. In the second book of Harry Potter he confronts the king of spiders and his children before confronting the basilisk, a giant snake.

read the archives, that has been mentioned at least 3 times that I can think of. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 22:22, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I just did a search on this pages text and the main pages text and saw no mention of it so I added it in.

The Nine...No! Eight...

Could it be that the change in status of Talos as a God is a direct reference to the re-designation of Pluto as a planet? For example, in Oblivion, 'The Nine' are referenced often - possibly the nine planets in our solar system. Now, in Skyrim, many NPCs mention 'The Eight', since Talos is no longer a God. Could this be a direct reference to Pluto's status as a planet being stripped? I.e. Talos is the equivalent of Pluto?

To be honest, that sounds extremely coincidental. I think the whole Talos thing is simply the victorious army stripping away the Empire's hero to better get them under the Thalmor's grip. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 17:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Coincidence. /Discussion. ThuumofReason 19:23, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

A Wizard of Earthsea Reference

Moved from Savos Aren (procedural move - I have no opinion either way) – Robin Hood↝talk 00:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Aren is probably a reference to Ursula K LeGuinn's novels, such as A Wizard of Earthsea, since he admitted he was once an Apprentice at the College, and ascended to Arch-Mage status. "Aren" is the name of the main character in LeGuinn's third book, The Farthest Shore. — Unsigned comment by 69.247.77.250 (talk) at 00:57 on 27 December 2011

Leverage

I have noticed that all of the extra jobs for the Thieves' Guild are entitled "The <X> Job," which is the same way the TV show LEVERAGE names its episodes. Might not be a refrence on purpose, but it is a show about a bunch of thieves, so. . .

I think that since they are all generic quests, it might just be a simple catch-all name for them. Probably not a reference to anything at all. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 04:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

If I had to relate 'The <X> Job' back to anything, it'd be The Italian Job, a famous heist film. I agree, though, likely not a direct reference.--Admos 12:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

A "job" is a common term for a robbery of some sort, this isn't a reference to anything. ThuumofReason 20:30, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Robocop?

sorry for the memory here but this happened a couple of days ago, and i'm not quite sure where and who said it. I'm thinking it could have happened in solitude or morthal as these were the last places i've been. I spoke to guard character and asked him what he did around town, and his reply was something like "uphold the law, protect the innocent and serve the public trust." they may not have been the exact words but thought that sounded like robocop. Anyone else noticed this or remember where and who said it? — Unsigned comment by 31.82.59.235 (talk) at 09:54 on 24 January 2012

The specific quote you're looking for is, "Our mission is to serve the Emperor, uphold the law, and protect the citizenry."

Robocop's prime directives (reordered for similarity) are: "Serve the public trust", "Uphold the law", and "Protect the innocent".

Given that the guards are the local law enforcement, and that I had no difficulty finding sources that quoted the laws in the above order (despite the fact that that doesn't appear to be the order used in the movies) I think you have a case, but let's see what others think. – Robin Hood↝talk 21:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ehh, I don't know, seems like a stretch...ThuumofReason 21:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

What made it seem likely to me was the addition of "uphold the law". When you get right down to it, "protect and serve", and variations thereof, are common to law enforcement agencies all over the place. If you Google protect serve "uphold the law", however, 3/4 of the results on the first couple of pages are the Robocop quote and the rest are coincidental uses in normal language which don't follow the phrasing style in any meaningful way. – Robin Hood↝talk 22:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

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