Shivering talk:The Cold Flame of Agnon

Images for the armor

It would be nice to have an image for each type of armor to help people decide who to help in the quest. I would try to take some screen shots myself but I play on the 360.Hellknight79 23:28, 22 September 2007 (EDT)

Now that I've done the quest I see that they look exactly like black finery and light blue regalia, lol. Should we put that info on the page?Hellknight79 00:32, 23 September 2007 (EDT)

Unable to move the Flame.

In the notes, you're told that you can shift the flame from one faction to the other, and receive the corresponding power in the process.

I've run a savegame twice through this quest, and in both instances as soon as I made my choice as to which faction I'd favor at the Sacellum, it was impossible for me to move the flame afterwards. Cages cover both braziers when you enter. When you make your choice, the corresponding priest lowers his cage and allows you to light the Sacellum brazier. The opposite brazier never opens up, and you're stuck with your initial choice.

I have no such "Flame of Dementia/Mania" enchantment awarded to me either.

Now, the "Prophet Arden-Sul" book says that Sheogorath can change the flame at whim, which implies to me that the ability to shift the flame from one brazier to the other is unlocked only after you complete the Main Quest. If that is the case, then the Notes are wrong when they state "...After bringing the Flame of Agnon to the Sacellum, you can walk from the Mania side to the Dementia side, receiving the corresponding enchantments. ..." because they imply you can do this immediately after the Cold Flame of Agnon quest is completed, or is my game bugged?Dark Spark 23:59, 13 December 2007 (EST)

Since no one with prior knowledge nor experience ever bothered to address this, I plowed ahead with my first gameplay through the SI Main Quest to discover my supposition to be correct. You have to become Sheogorath before you're allowed to move the Flame from one side to the other. Article has been amended.-Dark Spark 15:21, 30 December 2007 (EST)

Thanks for testing that out, Dark Spark. Generally when nobody answers a question like this it means that nobody else knows. In which case, the only way to find out is for someone to find the time to test it in game. In other words, if you're interested in the answer, testing it yourself is often the best way to get the answer :) --Nephele^Talk 03:29, 8 January 2008 (EST)

True. But the matter discussed above is none too radical an experiment. I was just wondering why the article said I could shift the flame when, after completing this quest for the first time, that did not appear to be the truth. Someone put that info out there in the first place, which goes to show they already knew some little thing about the matter. —Dark Spark 04:42, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Thank you for the extra information. If you look back through the edit history you'll see the information was first added here by an editor who is no longer active on the site (and only ever active for 5 days) and then added to here by an anonymous editor. I assume they only tried moving the flame after becoming Sheogorath and put the information on this page because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Whilst we try to keep the site as accurate as possible, things like this happen and I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you stopped giving us a hard time. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:14, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Glowing glitch?

Ever since completing this quest my FPS has been cruddy. I may not have the best machine but it was very playable up until now. When I look at my character (even when not wearing anything) they appear very bright (white in areas around the body, like near the lips, neck, shoulders, wrists, etc). I suspect it might be a part of the flame visual effect that never turned off, but it's bugging the heck out of me. Anyone know how to fix this?--65.35.183.198 19:51, 5 January 2008 (EST)

The Neutral Emmisary

If you decide to deliberatly destroy your own forces, e.g telling the Golden Saints to attack down the main passage, when the Dark Seducers are guarding it, resulting in the Saints being killed, when you were aligned to them, is the quest over, or do the Dark Seducers light the two flames for themselves?

I think the only way to actually fail the quest is for your character to die. The commander of the side you do choose, she remains Essential. Bottom line, it's impossible to have the Saints in the above scenario be totally wiped out because Kaneh is at least guaranteed to survive the fight. Of course, having your own force wiped out and an angry enemy crowd gathering around you is going to make your own survival a little more difficult.Dark Spark 21:33, 28 February 2008 (EST)

Prerequisites?

Saying that the Prereq Quest is "The Lady of Paranoia / Addiction" seems odd to me. Is it either/or? Is it both? And if it's both, can we make that part of the quest template, that they're both Prereq Quests? Muthsera 12:54, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Muthsera. I've adjusted the formatting to look like the Fighters Guild quests. It might not look perfect but at least it's standard. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 15:27, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

The detailed walkthrough section implies that you need to both quests, but the template says "or". I don't know Shivering, but I can tell there's a contradiction here. Which is it? Muthsera 10:27, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Good point. The detailed walkthrough was correct, and the header has now been fixed accordingly. Thanks for pointing that out. --Timenn < talk > 11:42, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Murder or bug?

Is it worth mentioning this in the main article? When I did this quest recently, I decided to help the Mazken. I didn't even go talk to the Aureals this time. As a result, killing the Aureals when they storm Cylarne resulted in me getting murder counts for killing them, even if they attacked me first. I reloaded and talked to the Aureal commander before siding with the Mazken, and then it was not considered murder. Not sure if this is a bug or what. --Nixlplix 21:01, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

Checking on this— I have a savegame which places me at Cylarne and ready to aid the Dark Seducers defend the Altar without having spoken to the Golden Saints (savegame records me as having talked to Ulfri already, but not to Kaneh yet). Electing to side with the Seducers without having heard the Saints' say in the matter, I set the Difficulty all the way down and single-handedly wiped out the Saints, and two of the kills did count as murders. My hypothesis is that killing the two named Saints (Mirel and Chuna) counted as murders on my part (Kaneh being a quest-marked hostile target which didn't count, I assume). —Dark Spark 19:41, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

Interesting. I thought maybe that was the case but I also got a murder count for the 'generic' defenders as well. --Nixlplix 21:01, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

I received an invitation to the Dark Brotherhood for killing a generic Dark Seducer during this quest.

Getting Armor from Fallen Commander

I was playing on the xbox 360, and when I got to the point where the commander (Kaneh, for me) sacrifices herself, I ran up to her after she ran herself through and, before the body dissapeared, I managed to loot it. On the body, there was a nameless item in the armor tab which I could not equip. I think this was the golden saint armor, and when I took it her armor did indeed vanish. I loaded my save and looted the body again. This time, there was no armor, and when I loaded a THIRD time there was a playable version. After several loads, I got these outcomes again variously, often the second one (no armor).

Anyone else have this glitch? HugoL 23:32, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

Bug of agnon.

I chose to fight with the dark seducers,and when i came back to the church all burning,the guy i was supposed to talk to had dissapeared,and left to the entrance to the shivering isles,he is now on the cyrodiil side,and can't come back in,so he can't open the gate for me...what do i do now? — Unsigned comment by 86.87.82.67 (talk) on 24 July 2009

Could this possibly be a mod conflict? The only way to really get out of it is to load a previous save. --Elliot ^talk 22:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Frozen Flames Bug?

On the Xbox 360, I have attempted this quest at least a dozen times, with all of the possible paths. Each time, I encounter a bug at a seemingly random point in the quest. It appears that much of the environment halts altogether, the most destinctive indication being that all of the flames in the numerous braziers lining the corridors freeze. Further inspection reveals that all spell animations have frozen as well, and Metal Doors and Metal Gates won't budge either. This bug has occured at various stages of the quest throughout my numerous attempts, in all three of Cylarne's indoor zones, and outside in the courtyard, before, during, and after the battle. Saving and reloading does not fix it. Traveling to different zones does not fix it. Fast traveling does not fix it.

Even when the bug does not hinder my navigation of the ruin (by preventing me passage through necessary Metal Doors/Gates) and I manage to finish the battle and meet my chosen commander at the Alter of Despair, if the bug has occured, the flame does not ignite when she sacrifices herself, and her body does not vanish. I receive no quest update, even after waiting for several days or fast traveling away and back.

Finally, in my latest attempt, I simply ran straight into Cylarne and told Ulfri I would help her defend, resulting in a messy, but desirably brief battle that finished before the bug could occur. Ulfri successfully kindled the flame at the Alter of Despair, I received the quest update, and I was able to retrieve the Flame of Agnon. However, the bug suddenly occured upon fast traveling to Crucible immediately afterwards. I was not able to light either side's torch because I could not open the fire gate.

Is anyone else experiencing this bug? Is there a workaround? --Rewolf 07:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

You need to talk to one of the priests in the Saccellum. As for your other question, no I have never heard of this glitch.

The Frozen Flames Bug has nothing to do with whatever quest. It happened to me twice after some 400 hours of gameplay. My advice is: do the main story line first, then do all the other quests. Or get the most wanted items first, etc.hnrene2sep 2010

SkoomaManiac 02:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Falling Through Stairs

Hi, so I was playing SI today and instead of Kaneh falling through the stairs at the Altar of Despair, one of the Dark Seducers did. This was very frustrating as I was on the Golden Saints' side and had to kill her to advance. She ran around underneath the stairs for a while while the remaing Saints followed her. I could see her shadow and occasionally her helm, but could not do damage to her. I fired arrows at her for a while, maybe 10 mins. She eventually appeared again at the top of the staircase, but not before I had killed all but two of the Saints accidentally with my arrows because they kept moving with the Seducer's shadow. When and why does this happen? And especially why did she appear again at the top of the staircase? To be clear, this was a generic Dark Seducer.

SkoomaManiac 02:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm just guessing, but I think that some NPCs are affected by the permeable walls glitch. This has happened to me several times including the same part where you saw this:Aurmazl Kaneh fell through the floor and the only thing that I could see was her head, it was until a few moments later that she spawned again in the floor. Same thing happened with an imperial legion guard, twice :/ --^MC• S'drassa ^•T2M 19:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So, annoying, but not particularly harmful. I'll make an edit. SkoomaManiac 02:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Helmet in Sheogorath's Palace

Is it correct that we're receiving a trophy helmet in Sheo's Palace (you know, this endlessly burning one) from commander of defeated faction, instead of helmet from commander who sacrificed herself? - ZuTheSkunk 13:23, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I just completed the quest and sided with the Saints. The trophy helmet is the Seducer kind, and is labeled "Ulfri's Helmet." EmmBee 15:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Repercussions for Wearing the Flame?

I was wondering if there are any consequences for taking the flame from the sacellum after the main quest and just wearing it around. As far as I can tell, the flame is visible even if you are invisible, but it doesn't seem to affect an NPC's ability to see you(I ran around in sneak mode invisible, I could see the flames but the Golden Saints didn't notice me). Sneak mode seems to be fine. It seems to me this is because even though it's a visual effect, it doesn't give off any actual light in-game. Are there any reasons not to just permanently wear it?

Not really, the only bad thing I have noticed is that it's sometimes hard to see in first-person.

Quest Breaking Bug

In regards to the latest bug, I have a vague memory of this happening to me a long time ago, and I think I just returned to the Flame of Agnon and waited for the quest update. It's a fairly complex quest, though, so I don't want to "fake it" with the Console. If somebody has a saved game near this point and can test to see if that fixes the problem, that'd be great. Thanks! – Robin Hood↝talk 18:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Just tested this one. It is not quest breaking. While the info about not being able to talk to the priests about the flame is true, I fast traveled back to Cylarne and got the quest update immediately upon my arrival. Additionally, the quest marker still pointed to Cylarne. Since anyone who follows the marker back would get the update immediately upon loading, it would be fairly difficult to miss this fix. I'll update the note on the page to reflect this new information and remove the VN tag. EmmBee 14:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Ring not raiment?

I just got the offer from the one who gives the item of intrigue and he said it was a Ring not a raiment. Anyone else get this?--Raleka 02:40, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

See the Notes section for your answer. – Robin Hood↝talk 07:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Moved note.

• After completing the Shivering Isles Main Quest, you gain the ability to transfer the Flame from one side to the other, receiving the corresponding blessing in the process. See the Sacellum Arden-Sul for details.

Is it worth putting this on here if it is on the last page ? JackTurbo95 16:45, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It makes a lot more sense on the Sacellum page and have nothing to do with the quest - so you made the correct decision. --Krusty 21:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow I got something right :o JackTurbo95 13:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

wierd bug

I have scouted the underdeep. It says in my quest log, "The Dark Seducers are defending the main passage to the Altar of Despair in strength. The route through the Underdeep appears to be only lightly defended. This information might convince Kaneh to attack through the Underdeep." I only remember talking to the guards outside each side about the flames themselves. Would someone help? the last thing i can do is talk to miral and tell him that i scouted it-in return he tells me that maybe i could somehow convince her to go through the underdeep-talking to either commander only gives me the options to ask about the seducers or the saints. Nothing else. no flames, no questions if i would help... my friend cleared the cache (money glitch) and saved after recieving the first journal of the quest, getting the assignment from sheogorath. the quest continued, however, when i arrived at the ruins. Special:Contributions/71.229.59.156 01:22, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Killing Saints Causes a Bounty

(moved from the article)

If you directly kill a Golden Saint during the battle, after siding with the Dark Seducers, it is likely to be counted as a murder and triggers the Dark Brotherhood questline. The reasons for this are unknown, as attacking a Saint will not count as assault. Despite this, the game may think that because they die at your hands, it is murder. It does not always happen, even if you kill the same Saint twice, after Quickloading. Most likely it is due to the fact that you attack them while they're fighting with a Dark Seducer. It does not happen if you kill a Dark Seducer after siding with the Golden Saints. Players who want a clean record may either have to bring down the health of the Golden Saints and let the Seducers land the killing blows, let the Saints come to your character, or simply side with the Saints.

I've moved this for several reasons. First, my own experience is that it's not true - I've killed loads of saints during several playthroughs of this quest and never had this happen. Second, it's full of speculation and "unknowns". It needs some serious research before going back on the article. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I understand it may be inconsistent with the games other people play. I admit I am unsure because it's never happened to me before, but if someone could look into it soon, it would really help. I did manage to get through the quest without "murdering" anyone because it doesn't happen all the time, but obviously I am curious. Arcansas 13:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I haven't had anything like this before neither. I have the unofficial patch however, which may influence that. In any case, the Golden Saints attack me if I sided with the Dark Seducers, so they don't only attack the Seducers, which would make this problem even less likely to happen. ~ Dwarfmp 13:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

It's happened to me before, although I didn't get a bounty. --Legoless 14:38, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, unofficial patch, that might be what it is. Do you have update 1.2.0416, Dwarfmp? But yes, the Golden Saints also attack me too, and if I killed them after they started fighting me I would be less likely to get a bounty, but it still happens at times for some reason.

No Legoless, no bounty. That is not what this quest risks while fighting; only murder counts. Arcansas 11:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes I have the official and unofficial patches. So this glitch would be rather annoying, since the Golden Saints tend to win the fight if you don't get involved. But if you don't get a bounty, is this really a big problem? Well if it is confirmed, maybe just a short mention of it will do ~ Dwarfmp 15:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Ushnar's Skinned Hound

Moved Note- * If you have completed the quest Ushnar's Terror, the Saints will attack Ushnar's Skinned Hound as they prepare to go through the underground passage.

I was unable to verify this, so it definitely does not always happen. The Saints completely ignored my hound as they took off for the Underdeep. I tried attacking a Saint so she would turn on me to see if she would attack the hound then, but she only attacked me until I yielded. The hound did get targeted by Seducers, but he was attacking them, so that would be normal. I can't seem to verify any problem unique to taking the hound on this quest. EmmBee 14:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

After spending way to much time testing Ushnar's annoying hound during Ghosts of Vitharn (with no results whatsoever), I think that we should eliminate all quest page notes referring to the Hound, then simply add a note to the Shivering:Ushnar's Terror page and tell people, that the hound may cause problems all over the quest line. Alternatively, a separate page for the Hound could be created (with the suggested information), although I'm not sure we have enough info for an entire page. --Krusty 09:04, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

"I blame you" NPC dialogue

I can't seem to find a mention of this anywhere, but at some point after completing this quest, NPC's in Bliss started to greet me with "I blame you whenever I see the light shining for Dementia," or variations thereof. Is this a standard occurrence based on which side you light the flame for? Meaning, the opposite town's citizens are always upset with you? The other possibility is that while I lit the flame for Dementia because I wanted the Raiment of Intrigue, I then went on to become Duchess of Mania. Since I didn't notice the change until later, I'm wondering if it is only triggered if you become the ruler of the opposite side than you lit the flame for. EmmBee 15:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if they're always upset with you, but for a little while, yes they will be upset with you. It just happens, I think it starts after you've completed The Cold Flame of Agnon quest. They greeted me with that too after I lit the Torch for Dementia. I'm fairly sure, though, whichever house you become Duke/Duchess for after that does not matter, because at the end of the quest Sheogorath only has one Duchess... you. Whichever Duke you don't kill defects to Order. Arcansas 00:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

characters stuck on Cyrodill side of door to the shivering isles?

I am stuck on the cold flame of Agnon having discovered a strange glitch. There are several people from the shivering Isles on the Cyrodil side of the gate and one of the them is Arctus. I had hoped that as he wasn't in the Sacellum Arden-Sul that talking to him and saying I will light the flame for dementia when he was stuck on the Cyrodil side of the door to the shivering isles that he would reappear in the correct place (or the gate would open and I could light the flame). This hasn't happened. I now have no way to finish the quest and continue on as I have no alternate save from before this happened. Does anyone know of any way to fix this strange bug on the PS3?

Did you do the Cure Vampirism quest with the change language trick? I know I did and SI have started being wonky after that (had some Seducers, Madness Weapons and Order Priests spawn at the Tiber Septim hotel and later an entire crowd of Isles denizens outside the Strange Door, Arctus included.

Saint/Seducer glitch: Elaboration needed.

1. If you attack a Golden Saint or Dark Seducer inside Cylarne they may follow you outside the Shivering Isles when you get caught by a guard in Cyrodiil.

What exactly are the circumstances of this? This just seems a little vague. Does this refer to the Golden Saints if you help the Dark Seducers, and vice-versa, the Saints and Seducers before helping either, the side that you help, or the Saints/Seducers that spawn once the Altars are taken for their respective sides?

And by attacking, does this mean, if you were to attack them and run straight to the Door to Cyrodiil, attack and yield to them, and then go to Cyrodiil, or some other meaning? Do they have to see you when you attack them, or must they see you attack them? Seriously, this absolutely needs to be elaborated on, because this is just too broad and vague to be helpful as a note. Bauglir100 02:58, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

What this means is that if you attack them and they become hostile, then if at some future point in Cyrodiil you commit a crime and get yourself arrested, when you appear outside the nearest castle, having either paid your bounty or served your time, then the saint or seducer may appear next to you. It's the same bug as with the three fighters guild members from Desolate Mine. I don't know if anybody understands the specific circumstances in which it happens. --Gaebrial 10:03, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Not to sound ungrateful, or rude, or anything like that, but that didn't really answer my question. You pretty much just stated what the entry originally said, and gave very little additional elaboration on it that wouldn't be obvious to begin with. Nor did you acknowledge anything past the first two sentences of my entry. I know very well how the "Jail-time followers" glitch works.

I want the technicalities and additional circumstances of this one particular glitch that causes Saints/Seducers from this quest to follow you out of the Isles. That way, people will know if they're doing anything right or wrong when attempting to pull of the glitch. Bauglir100 00:38, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Bugged Dark Seducer

Sometimes a Dark Seducer will get stuck and not engage properly during the Golden Saint assault. Killing her did not generate a bounty, as I sided with the Golden Saints, but it did trigger the start of the Dark Brotherhood questline as I received the notification that my killing has not gone unnoticed. 192.95.246.8 12:00, 2 February 2015 (GMT)

The Dark Seducers here don't have much to talk about after finishing main quest

I helped the Dark Seducers win, finished this quest, and then finished the whole SI main quest. After that, I happened to be near Cylarne one day, so I stopped by. As expected, there were Dark Seducers posted on both sides of the courtyard. I went up to one of them and she gave me one of the "Hi, Sheo" type greetings. When I entered conversation with her, though, she had zero topics - just a greyed-out scroll bar and the X button to exit conversation. I exited conversation and she gave me one of the "Bye, Sheo" type partings. I'm not sure if this rises to the level of a Bug or a Note, but I figured I'd write it down somewhere. This is on PC, 1.2.0416, installed from retail disc, no mods. 73.3.58.200 10:38, 17 June 2021 (UTC)