Oblivion talk:Marksman Training

Level requirement

Surely there is not a coded restriction on characters under level 9 from completing this? Anyone with access to a console and the Elven Bow code can finish this at level 1, unless there is really a code for level 9. I take it someone got a little heavy-handed with the use of the Level 9 requirement. I suggest that it read, "Required Item: Elven Bow. Required Level: Marksman 70. Level 9 required to obtain Elven Bow." Anarchangel 00:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

That's called cheating. Duh there is no coded restriction, but we can't change the requirements because only PC users can do this. We have to list things all users can do or it's not fair. 71.63.13.57 00:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Your opinions are noted. Anarchangel 18:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, it may not be fair that everyone does not have a computer (and I have one but I cannot run the console as I use Vista), but it does not actually help non-computer owners or Vista users to withhold information from the others. If altruism is giving something out of the kindness of your heart, then what you are asking for is the opposite, ie taking something away out of the meanness of your heart. If that is fairness, I will take unfair every time. Anarchangel 18:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and our job is not to list things all users can do, but list all things users can do. Anarchangel 18:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Does this format fit with the requirements for other quests? I don't think I've seen any quest that mentions "Required Item" - not even The Path of the Righteous. --Nocturnal 01:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Eleven of the fifteen Oblivion:Daedric Quests do. You are named after one of the exceptions to the rule. Anarchangel 18:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Path of the Righteous should list the Boots of the Crusader as a required item. In general, any quest that requires an item should show it in the Quest Header - but it seems many don't. –rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 18:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)We explain quests the way they were intended to be played. As I stated in my edit summary, we do not point out every time you can use the console to circumvent the game's requirements. And, yeah, if an item is required for a quest, it should be in the header.

(Also, as an aside, you can use the console with Vista, I do.)--GK^Talk2me 18:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I did not spot this revert or I would have been all over it immediately. The now bends over backwards in a tortuous fashion in order to keep the phrase, 'the only quest... that has a level requirement', restoring the problems with this statement that my second edit fixed, despite having pointed them out in my second edit summary: It is not a level requirement. It is an item req. Level req. to obtain the item is already noted. As for avoiding mentioning the console, you can assert that 'we' do or do not do a lot of things, but deleting information about playstyles utilizing a feature that Bethesda has implemented in both Oblivion and Morrowind is not a generous policy for readers or UESP, no matter how many times you say it.

Now that I potentially have it to do over again, I would write it this way: "This is the only quest in the entire game other than the Daedric quests which is impossible to complete before level 9, the level at which Elven Bows become available in the game, without creating an Elven Bow with the console. The bandit camp northwest of Alawen poses a significant threat to her survival; as always, should she die before the quest has been completed, it is impossible to complete it successfully." Anarchangel 10:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

As someone has already pointed out, using the console is cheating. XBox and PS3 users can't use the console at all. UESP does not mention use of the console in the main text of articles unless there is a game-breaking bug. At most, such suggestions get moved to a Note. It doesn't matter that the console is available. By that logic, we can delete all our quest walkthroughs and just write one page with a console solution for the main quest.

UESP contains a console page and also lists the id for every piece of equipment used in the game. If people want to cheat, they can use those pages to do so. Most people want to play the game properly, and so UESP does not need to include console cheats on every page. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

XBox & PS3 users are given right and proper distinction where technical details of their systems, or performance, or game world details, differ from other platforms. Distinctions between the systems are properly included, not excluded.

Including console solutions is not equivalent to excluding conventional solutions. Inasmuch as you reframed my statements, your hypothetical comes close to being a straw man argument.

'Cheating', 'cheat' and "most people want to play the game properly", and specifically, "properly" itself, are your opinion, and noted, but they are not logical arguments, let alone facts. Anarchangel 13:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

It's cheating however you want to try justifying it. The game manual doesn't mention the console and neither does the Official Strategy Guide, so it is quite clearly not intended to be part of normal usage. You obviously don't know what the word "logic" means, so please don't use it in any further discussions. In fact, since you seem to insist on changing every single aspect of the site you disagree with, why don't you find a different one? Andy Schlafly on Conservapedia misuses the word "logic" too - why don't you try there? rpeh •T•C•E• 14:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You make a valid point about the manual; it is not in mine, but I would have expected that to be because mine is the bundled Bioshock/Oblivion manual. I always wait for a couple of years, it reduces the price dramatically. It would be a bit of a stretch to apply this to all coverage on UESP, though; the game belongs to the people who buy it and play it, not the people who make it. I will not respond to your other points. Anarchangel 15:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

A search for 'Console' in Oblivion alone, without expansions and excluding talk pages, shows 203 inclusions. The console is a useful tool for repair and customization of the game experience; it has been here since before Oblivion and it is not going away, however objectionable you find it personally. Anarchangel 16:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

As stated earlier, we do suggest players use the console at various places. This is practically always done to inform readers on how to circumvent or fix bugs. I think the majority of the instances of the word "console" you found are because of that. --Timenn-<talk> 16:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Finis, The End: I do not suppose there is a policy to this effect written anywhere? In any case, it is a policy without a rationale, other than opinions about how the game should be played, that Bethesda intended the game to be played a certain way and therefore the wiki should only mention that way, etc. So, I shake the dust from my feet and hope to never return to this discussion again. I can only hope that one day you will see the error in your ways, as you are quite immune to reason. Anarchangel 04:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

\=> Implied consensus. It's a practice performed by a wide range of editors over a good number of years. If you want to change that, I suggest you create a discussion at the appropriate place. May I suggest that in that discussion you refrain from using such arrogant tone, and instead choose to respect everyone has a different view on things. --Timenn-<talk> 12:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Like the consensus of the editors here has respected the view of consoles as being part of some people's enjoyment of the game? Okay. And my text is arrogant, but "You obviously don't know what the word "logic" means, so please don't use it in any further discussions." is not mentioned? You are not going to earn any respect from me with that kind of judgment. Anarchangel 14:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Removing awkwardness and the 'Required Level' misnomer

• Current text:
  

"This is the only quest in the entire game other than the Daedric quests that has a "level requirement", though it is not exactly the level that is required. Elven bows are not available in-game anywhere before level 9. While it is possible to "complete" the quest by failing it, if Alawen should die after the quest has been obtained, it is impossible to receive her training without reaching the required level."

• Proposed text:
  

"This is the only quest in the entire game other than the Daedric quests which is impossible to complete before level 9, the level at which Elven Bows become available in the game. The bandit camp northwest of Alawen poses a significant threat to her survival; as always, should she die before the quest has been completed, it is impossible to complete it successfully."

It has a level requirement. Wait, no it does not exactly. It is possible to complete the quest by failing it.

This awkwardness would be all very well if the intention was to string the reader along into a shaggy dog tale. By contrast, the proposed text correctly states that level is a problem, without erroneously claiming that level is a requirement, and says why. It also avoids the truism that quests can be completed by failing them, and focuses on the goal, success. It also correctly sets the deadline for this, which is the completion of the quest. The other fails to mention that if she should die before the quest is obtained, it is also impossible to complete successfully. The proposal points out a specific threat to Alawen; the current text makes no distinction between the chances of Alawen's survival and that of any other NPC, despite the fact she begins her roaming around the monster-infested wilderness right next to a bandit camp. Anarchangel 04:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with the proposed text. --Timenn-<talk> 12:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeh, you can do it. I am bored of being reverted by Rpeh. Anarchangel 14:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm bored of having to revert somebody who doesn't know what he's talking about. Since you like Obliviowiki so much, go there and play your games. Leave this wiki to the experts. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Quest Updates?

If Alawen, or really any of those wilderness trainers, dies out in the wild out of my knowledge and sight, does it still come up as a journal entry? Because if it does that makes it reeeaaaally helpful with looking for them, since for all you know your looking for a dead man. chopz4c1d

If they die while you have the quest active, then yes. Otherwise it should be impossible to start the quest at all. rpeh •T•C•E• 18:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Finding Elven Bow at high levels

If there is any place that you can ALWAYS find an elven bow, I think it would be worth mentioning. I know it's a pretty common find at lower levels, but I didn't start this quest until well after level 30 and have not found it on any enemy or in any container. I was lucky enough to find one in Bruma, bought it from Fjotreid at Hammer and Axe, but I know it won't always be there, or in any shop, reliably. So keep a lookout for an instance in which you can always find an elven bow and, if found, add it to the page, would be a great help, especially for higher-level chaacters. 71.79.20.178 18:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Alas, there's no such place. rpeh •T•C•E• 18:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Im above level 30 also and I read your post about bruma, went there and found the elven bow. so maybe bruma hammer and axe is reliable late in the game for the bow (75.159.45.232 22:32, 1 July 2013 (GMT))

Just a coincidence. — ABCface^◥ 22:37, 1 July 2013 (GMT)

Possible Bug with Quest Initiation?

Perhaps I am a few years late to expect any useful updates here, but I seem to be experiencing a bug where the Training dialog topic does not appear with Pinarius Inventius even though my base, unfortified Marksman skill is exactly 70, and does not appear no matter how many times I return after increasing my Marksman skill.

I haven't touched Oblivion (xbox360 version) in a few years and recently decided to pick it up and try for 100% completion; Xbox live had a patch which presumably came out after my last play (and would thus post date the most recent updates of this page.) I wonder whether this was an unintentional bug introduced in that patch, or if this was actually a known bug back in the day that was never documented because a certain editor was busily picking fights with people. Either way, this amateur will try to document as much information as possible about this bug in case one day someone more familiar with the style and rules of this wiki wishes to make it a main page note.

Fergus

Edit: And before an archangel descends from the heavens to smite me for stupidity, yes I wandered over to the Master Trainer to confirm she still had a pulse. — Unsigned comment by 98.70.78.129 (talk) at 17:46 on 8 July 2014 (GMT)

If a fix was introduced in a later patch, you might have to start a new game to get it to take effect. I don't know much about how the process works, but I know that not all fixes made will affect saves made for previous patches. Other than that, the only thing I can think of is if you're maybe talking to him at the wrong time. Did you talk to him during the hours of the day when he normally offers training? You might also try talking to Reman Broder in Skingrad and see if he offers you training. Zul se onikaan^{Laan tinvaak} 16:38, 9 July 2014 (GMT)