Lore talk:Wardens

Does Not Belong in Bosmer Religion

Warden's are not intrinsically tied to Bosmer in any way, shape, or form. They don't follow the Green Pact, their ranks are made up of pretty even racial distributions, they are found all across Tamriel, and they aren't even a part of Bosmeri society. The only source claiming such is one which does not exist in game. It's only briefly mentioned in Wardens of the Green that another author erroneously claimed they were 'a militant group of Spinners attempting to take over Tamriel', which was only done to dispel the connection people make both in and out of universe that a Warden is a Bosmer thing (and also explain why its totally fine for players to not choose Bosmer, but that's oog stuff that can't shouldn't be considered here). The evidence does not support warden's being a Bosmeri thing in any way, shape, or form, and adding them to the navbox as designating them as such doesn't seem correct at all. - Jacksol (talk) 16:00, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

The Warden-Spinner link is mentioned in Who Are the Wardens?, but quickly dispelled by the arguments of our dear Lady Cinnabar. The book Wardens of the Green talks about the Silvenar and the Green Lady, so it's not about Wardens but about wardens. Therefore, I agree that they have little place in the Bosmer Religion Navbox. -- SarthesArai ^Talk 17:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

My mistake, I got the two books mixed up. Who Are the Wardens is the one I intended to link. Jacksol (talk) 18:07, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I've undone the removal here. It is not our job to decide which source is "correct". From an in-universe perspective, A Story of Blood: The Spinners Take Tamriel is a real and citable academic text which asserts that Wardens are militant Wood Elf priests. For the purposes of a navbox, this is enough evidence to include them there, despite Lady Cinnabar's refutation. Being "intrinsically tied to the Bosmer" is not a requirement to be listed on the navbox, as even the Spinners are not exclusively Bosmer. According to Priest of the Green, they are also found in High Rock.

A source not existing in-game is irrelevant for the purposes of lorespace. It is well known that Lady Cinnabar and Phrastus disagree on many things, and Wardens of the Green is therefore a heavily biased source itself. The unreliable narrator trope is not in itself a reason to remove something, and this navbox is not the place to go into the intricacies of the source material. There is enough in-universe evidence here to warrant an inclusion on this template, and readers can refer then to the Warden article to decide whether to believe Cinnabar or Phrastus. —⁠Legoless (talk) 20:02, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

This is a ridiculously biased response man. By putting it in the template unchallenged, you're taking a side in the argument by saying they are part of the Bosmeri religion. You can't say that, in order to be unbiased, we should put lore we only ever hear about in the context of it being ridiculously wrong to a higher standard than what we actually get to read. Jacksol (talk) 01:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

In agreement with Jack. The Priest of the Green costume is saying that there are priests of Jephre/Y'ffre in both Valenwood and High Rock, and that they are known by different names. It is not saying there are Spinners in both provinces - "Spinner" is the unique identifying name for the Bosmer "priest" of Y'ffre. Spinners clearly do not appear in any form in Breton culture or religion, that would make little sense. Vicars of Jephre must serve a similar religious role insofar as they are priest figures tied to Jephre, not because they are literally also Spinners. Sage of Ice (talk) 02:09, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. The the role of a 'Spinner' is something unique to Bosmeri society, even if similar roles exist in other societies under different names. In contrast, 'Wardens' exist all over Tamriel and have nothing to do with Bosmeri society. Jacksol (talk) 02:17, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

We have an in-universe academic stating that Wardens are Spinners. Dismissing this out of hand is the bias here. —⁠Legoless (talk) 12:06, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I do think we should have some of the information mentioned on the Warden page, and move some of that over to the Spinner page then remove Warden off of the Nav Box all together. For one they didn't write in Phrastus of Elinhir's book they just mentioned it (It means they never intended for that academic to be Creditable in this case and thus not worthy of having a counter book for at least when it comes to this sourcing.)) The Book they did write in is very clear that they are in fact an all Tamriel thing and not a Bosmer thing and gives us actual facts about their power sets. For that reason alone they should not be put under Bosmeri Religion. Because this is every race, and if so should be placed in all the other racial god nav boxes as its an all Tamriel thing. Spinners are the Bosmer thing, Wardens are not but they do share similarities as both groups worship Y'ffre.TheVampKnight (talk) 13:08, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

(←) Navboxes are not the place to go into detail on the credibility of individual sources. A solution could be to introduce a footnote similar to what was done with {{Races}}, but frankly I think it's a little ridiculous to be adding prose to what is essentially a navigation tool. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

This is precisely the issue. By putting it ON the navbox, it is coming with the implicit assumption that they are, in fact, part of Bosmeri society. Editors who waste their times on this constantly like we do would know better, but that is not how most people reading the page see it. They see 'Warden' listed under 'Bosmeri Religion' and accept that connection, which is false. Why can we not just remove it if the connection is so flimsy? Having it there doesn't do anything but confuse people on the nature of Wardens and provide undue credit to Phrastus' account. Jacksol (talk) 18:35, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

There is clearly a connection; Wardens worship Y'ffre and are defenders of "the Green", a primarily Bosmeri religious concept. Whether they are exclusively Bosmeri or militant Spinners or not shouldn't be a deciding factor on whether to include them in the navbox. There is no harm in providing further interwiki linking. Readers will not be confused, because the subject is explained thoroughly here on the linked article. —⁠Legoless (talk) 16:43, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

That's not primarily a Bosmeri religious concept. Bretons and Altmer also revere Jephre and have their own priests, like you already said. Also, they're warriors of Nature's (capital N's) behalf too, which is a Wyrd concept/diety if you really wanna say that only Bosmer can have something as generally named as the Green. Warden's aren't tied to Bosmer any fundamental way, saying there is 'clearly a connection' just because they worship Y'ffre is blatantly false.

Additionally, I feel you're not understanding my point. I GET that the page itself is clear about the ambiguity, but that isn't the issue. Many readers will simply see Wardens are in the Bosmeri navbox and assume they are bosmeri, because we literally tell them they are with no context stating they aren't. Most people aren't going to dig much further than "Oh, okay, they're bosmers. Neat." Jacksol (talk) 19:08, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Even though the Bosmeri primary worship Y'ffre. Y'ffre is a deity that is worshiped by Bretons, High Elves, even the Dunmer acknowledge the god Jephre. So its elves in general and not Bosmer according to this lore book https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Of_Jephre . They all worship or acknowledge Jephre/Y'ffre to some degree, so to say they are a Bosmer thing is really misleading as the lore says otherwise. So I feel Jack Sol is right in pointing that out and I 100% agree with him on this. Do to this reason we should either have the Warden on all the elven races nav boxes. Redguards especailly as they are confirmed to be part of that offically. Dunmer for sure because many of the wardens class abilties we have are based on Vvardenfell. Either that or just take the Warden off the Bosmer Nav Box. TheVampKnight (talk) 23:40, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I think you might be missing my point here. I am aware Y'ffre is worshipped by many cultures, and yet he is included on the {{Bosmer Gods}} navbox. Being included on a navigation bar is not a statement of race-specific exclusivity and it shouldn't be framed as such. —⁠Legoless (talk) 12:48, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

But it does imply they are a part of Bosmeri society, which they aren't. Bosmer CAN be Wardens, but so can any other race, it's not tied to their culture or religion in any meaningful way. Even if the actual page dissuades readers, having it on the navbox will wrongly give one source more weight. For casual readers, that is a statement of fact. Jacksol (talk) 18:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)