Lore talk:The Real Barenziah (Daggerfall)

10 or 12 Volumes?

There are obviously some errors here…
When checking the game data of Daggerfall, there are only 10 volumes of "The Real Barenziah".

• UESP I + II are vol. 1 (which actually is called only "The Real Barenziah" without declaration of volume)
• UESP III - VI are vol. 2 - 5
• UESP VII is vol. 6 and partially 7
• UESP VIII is the rest of vol. 7
• UESP IX is vol. 8 (which actually is called "The True Barenziah VIII")
• UESP X is vol. 9, but misses text of it and giving instead content of vol. 10
• UESP XI is the correct rest of vol. 9
• UESP XII is vol. 10, repeating the wrong text in X

I'd like to correct this – someone's objecting? (I know, it's a lot of work…) -- CompleCCity (talk) 12:03, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

Hmmm something is certainly strange as I see repeating text in Part X and Part XII. Gez must have added the last two in error - but if this series only goes up to 10, why does Lore:The Real Barenziah, Part XI exist?

I don't have access to the original Daggerfall books, so I can't confirm anything - but if you are confident that there is something definitely wrong, then certainly it should be fixed. Maybe sandbox it first if its a big job? --Jimeee (talk) 12:37, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

The books have been in existence from 2006, I'd like a second opinion before changing the amount and text of the copies. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 14:34, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

If we look at the originals posted way back in 2005 by Dr.Faust (I guess from game data?), they seem to be mirror what CompleCCity is changing them to now. Example: Lore:The_Real_Barenziah,_Part_I. For whatever reason, Aristeo changed these to the structure that has lasted till today. --Jimeee (talk) 14:55, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

There was surely a good reason for Aristeo to change them, I'd like to find it if possible before any more changes are made. 2 hours isn't enough time to allow objection to changing 8 year old edits (unless of course they are undeniably wrong, which isn't fully clear here). Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 15:11, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

Sure, but CompleCCity should be made aware there is an objection, so he isn't wasting his time making more edits. He's probably not looking at the recent changes. --Jimeee (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

Every time before I post a change, I'm looking. Okay, what could I do to solve this discussion? Do I need permission by some Admin? What's next? --CompleCCity (talk) 15:38, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

And please could ThuumofReason join into this discussion before making undo's? --CompleCCity (talk) 15:41, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

What tool are you using to access the Daggerfall game data? I imagine that screenshots or some sort of link that can verify the game data might help. Also, admin TheRealLurlock might know more about this, or give some additional insight.--Jimeee (talk) 15:43, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

(edit conflict) A second confirmation, so that we can understand Aristeo's edits. I'm going through his edits at the time now, but nothing appears relevant. Other than that a relevant time (considering time and level of changes) to allow objections should pass. I might also suggest contacting PLRDLF, our resident Daggerfall expert. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 15:46, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

It's difficult to prove "my" correctness. Just looked, but I think I'm not permitted to upload game data files by Bethesda, only graphics are allowed. I did once download the game from the official site, it's a ZIP. Contains several directories, one is named BOOKS. There are 91 TXT-files, named BOKxxxxx.txt. One can open them with the Editor/Notepad, simple, easy. Beside some control characters there you can read 1) the title, 2) the author, 3) the header, and 4) the text itself. All clear, no hex-code or whatever. I checked all 91 files and there are only 10 volumes of Barenziah - with the mentioned difference in contents to those here are posted. -- CompleCCity (talk) 15:54, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

So I've contacted those two. -- CompleCCity (talk) 15:59, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

Awesome, thanks for spotting the (potential) error and letting us know so something can be about it. I might download the text files myself and check if I get some time. --Jimeee (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

(←) I'm pretty familiar with Daggerfall myself, so I loaded up the game and did a bit of digging. A cursory search of several libraries and bookstores revealed that there is indeed a discrepancy, and that the text on the site is assigned to different volumes than in the game. Also, while I found several copies of Volume X, I did not find any copies of volumes XI or XII, though that's not to say they don't exist. I do know that several of the unofficial patches for Daggerfall include elements that introduce changes to the unpatched game, so perhaps this was one of those changes? ThuumofReason (talk) 16:09, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

Yours truly always has nothing better to do. The official game available from the Elder Scrolls site only has the 10 volumes. The CompUSA patch is apparently official, but it would be easier to know what patches CompleteCCity is using first. I'm satisfied that there is a copy of the game with only 10 volumes, but I'd still like an answer as to it has been split into 12 here. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 16:17, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

As I said I look to the books with my notepad.exe – so I don't use any patch. Game version is 1.07.213, downloaded in Nov 2013. ;o) -- CompleCCity (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

Okay, I gave it a try, did install the "full" version with all patches available – the relevant books haven't changed, neither in content nor in number. -- CompleCCity (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

Perhaps some people did misunderstand my last comment: the books haven't changed according to the errors I mentioned.

It seems that most of the evidence confirms my point of view, so do some people here. I have one (and only one) idea for the reason to split this biography up into 12 volumes: in the original first volume there's one point with a relative large break – just at the point, where here (before my changes) volume 1 had ended and 2 begun. But that doesn't explain the further sorting given here. In the Daggerfall game data there's one similar break in a later volume, so one could think it should have been 12 parts. But the originally given names count definitely from 1 to 10.

The Imperial Library does strangely also list 12 volumes in one place, but in another place there's an excellent collection of books in PDF format, where the editor Zeph is giving a synoptical edition of the biography, comparing in two columns the old and the new edition – counting up to volume 10 (see page 265 of that PDF).

I don't have all the time of the world and editing would become the more difficult the more time is passing since my starting. So I'd like to continue my work. What do you all say? -- CompleCCity (talk) 10:51, 4 June 2014 (GMT)

As someone who plays the game since 2001 and still working on an accurate translation of the game and all it's content I can approve this statement of CompleCCity. The last official version of the game consists of ten books (bok00043 to bok00052). Not more and not less. I do not know why IL did the same mistake, but IL isn't as accurate as most people think. Neither UESP (regarding DF-Books) - I left a note on another page but nobody responded yet. Still you can ask everyone who looked deeper into the game. There are not more book-files where XI and XII could be in.--Deepfighter (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2014 (GMT)

I think we can safely say there are only 10 volumes, not 12. If volume 10 ends how the current volume 12 does ("...while they waited, and hoped, and prayed for their Champion's success in his long mission."), then it's pretty obvious. Personally, I would have no problem if the pages were updated to reflect this - as the game data has shown. The lack of edit summaries makes it near impossible to know why Aristeo's made it 12 volumes (and given the terms of his departure from the wiki, its unlikely we will ever know). I speculate this went unnoticed for so long is because most readers don't typically cross reference the texts with the in-game books or they opt to read the updated version from later games... and because its a bit of a snore-fest. --Jimeee (talk) 12:05, 4 June 2014 (GMT)

I agree. No matter what Aristeo's reasons were, multiple sources have now confirmed that there are only 10 original volumes, so the site information needs to be updated for accuracy anyway. ThuumofReason (talk) 12:14, 4 June 2014 (GMT)

Thanks to all! I will continue tomorrow, in Germany it's now shortly after half past 10 in the evening… It seems to be kind of an internet legend; even one of the most important german ressources for Elder Scrolls stuff cites now 11 (!?) volumes, written in english with repetition of text (Deepfighter should know that one, Scharesoft). Strange thing, also on these pages: the site headers nevertheless do sometimes speak of vol. 10, even when on page 11 or 12…

I want to mention, that I do respect the work of Aristeo and other contributors here (even, if I don't know him/them). It wasn't my intention to talk someone's work and effort down. But I love – especially – this story and like to have the correct lore secured somewhere. Besides I'm working on a personal book mod, which explains my deep interest in doing research here, too. -- CompleCCity (talk) 19:52, 4 June 2014 (GMT)

(←) So, work done… phew! All 10 lore and Daggerfall volumes revised and their overviews. The notes in the later editions (lore and especially Skyrim) adjustet so they don't relate to non-existent volumes, also that overview (the number of volumes was mentioned). Proposals for deletion added to the lore and Daggerfall volumes XI and XII, they're now contained in IX and X. Links to these volumes deleted (in lore and Daggerfall books by subject/author). :o) -- CompleCCity (talk) 13:24, 5 June 2014 (GMT)