Lore talk:Shivering Isles

Map Caption

The map caption was recently removed due to the Isles not being a province. I disagree with the removal, as all of the information is accurate and substantial. The caption serves the same purpose on this article as it does on the provinces: to summarise the place without the need of an ugly table. Thoughts? --Legoless 14:13, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Everything located within it is just speculation without references. Also, it looks bad on other pages, too; I just saw this one today and decided it was even worse than the others. Elliot (talk) 14:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The "official language" thing doesn't have any base, now that you bring it up. References can be provided for the others, but you'll notice that the entire article is lacking in that area. --Legoless 14:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

That's not really a good reason to add contentious information... Elliot (talk) 14:46, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Contentious? As I said, all the information (bar that Daedric thing) can be cited. --Legoless 14:52, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Can the Isles really be called a "Nation"? And I'm not sure the Aureals and Mazken can necessarily be called "native" either. I've no real opinion on this either way, but I just thought I'd mention those. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:58, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I as well find that bit of text troubling. It seems strange to call The Shivering Isles a Natin, it's more of a plane of Oblivion really. The bit about it being the Golden Saints and Dark Seducers native land doesn't really make sense, and I have trouble considering the Grummites to be little more than monsters. As we don't list all native species I have trouble seeing how that bit fits in. The reference to when it was founded is once again, hard to back up. It also seems weird that Septims would be used as a currency by The Shivering Isles, I believe that was more of a game limitation really. Considering these things I find it hard to justify keeping the caption. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:12, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The Isles has a system of governing, but whether that counts as a nation or not is debatable. As for the Golden Saints and Dark Seducers, their wellsprings are located in the Isles and they were created by Sheogorath, so I see that as native - although, AKB is correct in that we don't list "creatures", and Daedra could be counted as such. I don't particularly like the province captions either, so I guess I'll back down on this, seeing as how it seems to be unpopular. --Legoless 18:05, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

question about history section

Where is it stated that it was the CoC who mantled Sheogorath? I cannot remember coming across any reference that says so, apart from his dialogue in Skyrim which is vague enough to be interpreted in a myriad ways. I think it is at least a possibility that someone else who went through that portal mantled the god, insofar that I cannot find anything to suggest that it definetively was the CoC. --77.249.235.60 23:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Sheogorath does not directly say, "I am the Champion of Cyrodiil". But he references every major event that happened in 3E 433. That is why he is believed to be Champion. Bloodaxe^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 23:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Even without the unquestionable references present in Skyrim, it is usually assumed that the hero of a certain game performed every action unless stated otherwise. Although sometimes it's better to remain vague (e.g., "an adventurer" rather than "the Nerevarine"), there's nothing inherently wrong with specifying. --Legoless 00:09, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

But why is this assumed? Wouldnt it be more logical to assume that only the main quest is done by the hero of the game, and that other events if they happened were performed by someone else?

I know I mostly always made peace between the fighters guild and the thieves guild in Morrowind but that canon history states the thieves guild was destroyed.

In my opinion it becomes a bit silly when you have one person being head of every guild in a certain province in a certain timeperiod, and much less so to assume those events as facultative.

The book 'On the Oblivion crisis' mentions nothing about any of Oblivion's sidequests. Personally, I find it much more narratively statisfying to imagine that the madgod could have been mantled by anyone who went through that portal and that it does not neccesarily have to be the CoC.

This is all just my opinion mind, but as I said, something about the assumption just strikes me as unstatisfying storywise.

--77.249.235.60 03:40, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Since Shivering Isles was an expansion, the "main quest" did involve replacing Sheogorath - that was the whole point. And of course a book about the Oblivion Crisis is only going to describe the oblivion crisis. I honestly don't think there's much doubt that Skyrim's Sheogorath was once the Champion of Cyrodiil, although it's probably more a case of a caterpillar and a butterfly: they both might be part of the same lifecycle but you can't really say that the butterfly "is" the caterpillar. rpeh •T•C•E• 06:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

(←) Nevertheless, it is entirely within the realm of the possible that it was not the CoC but another person who mantled the madgod. The portal was an invitation open to anyone. Since there is no actual proof of the CoC becoming the madgod, and since it is not unreasonable to assume he does not have to be, I have questions about the validity of declaring it as canon fact, especially given the ambiguity TES lore takes on similar issues as a matter of course. --77.249.235.60 13:42, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, I refer to Sheogorath's dialogue in Skyrim. That is proof enough. --Legoless 16:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. While it implies he is present at certain events during the Oblivion crisis, he does not specifically say outright he is the CoC, which would be proof.

There are other explanations for what he says, a mundane one would be that it is another person who lived during that time and a mystical one would be that the god of madness is present in the mind of every mortal.

Im not saying that is what is meant and Im not saying the CoC is Sheogorath, though I agree the latter is the most likely theory.

What I object to is stating something as fact that is not given as fact, and is open to other interpretations.

TES lore is by habit ambiguous on a lot of details, especially involving player characters, and I just think it should be presented as a 'very likely' or 'signs point towards' as opposed to an outright fact.

--77.249.235.60 17:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to say this, but this site can not please everyone. The majority of players want all of their characters to live. If this is one way of perserving the CoC/HoK, good, this is the way Bethesda chose to do it. You may not like, you may hate, but it happened. And please remember, All Main Quests, including dlc main quests, happen. The Knights of the Nine were restored, occording to the book Third Era Timeline, and that was a minor dlc at best. Shivering Isles had to have happened too.--Br3admax 17:18, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in the games or books suggest the contrary. There is absolutely no evidence that suggests that Sheogorath isn't the CoC, but plenty that does suggest the he is Sheogorath. The only way to possibly believe that isn't the CoC is to entirely ignore many lines of dialogue from SI, and Sheogorath's dialogue in Skyrim. As soon as something is presented that contradicts any of the evidence currently supporting this, I might be willing to debate this in earnest, but until then, it's clear canon. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Im not saying the events did not happen, Im saying that there is no proof that the CoC became Sheogorath.

There are hints and there is conjecture, but however likely this should not be presented as fact.

My personal opinion has little to do with this, though it was the reason I bothered with it in the first place, what matters here is presenting conjecture as if it were fact.

A simple change to 'it is highly like that.. because of [this'] and [this] would provide a more accurate and fair picture.

It cannot be so that the personal opinion of any one contributor takes precedence over what should be presented as fact or not, based on objective evidence.

--77.249.235.60 17:31, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

(←) We should stop this argument, it's on almost every single lore and skyrim page that envolves Sheogorath, it's a losing battle on the part of the oposition and it should stop. We could be making a lot more articles better than discussing the very small number of articles that even deal with the Madgod. Everyone should be happy; Bethesda made every single Oblivion player immortal.--Br3admax 17:38, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not the opinion of "any one" editor, it's a group of editors currently discussing this, a practice often used to create consensus on what should be stated on an article. As of now, you've still yet to present anything to suggest the contrary, so I don't really see a reason to alter the article. While I admit that I can't absolutely prove that the CoC is Sheogorath, I also can't prove that anyone else on the planet is actually conscious. That doesn't mean I believe in Philosophical Zombies though. I'm going to agree with Br3admax here, until you provide any evidence to contradict the article, I don't see a reason to discuss this. As soon as you can present us with anything to support your argument, I'll gladly discuss this with you then. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:41, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I dont really understand why I should provide evidence to refute conjecture. I have provided conjecture of my own and that stands equally opposed to any other logically valid conjecture, whether the majority adhere to it or not. Again, the burden of proof here lies not on my side, but on the other one, to prove there is a justification for declaring conjecture canon fact. If conjecture is valid then the final report to trebonius should be included as a reason of the dissapearance of the Dwemer. It certainly holds more validity as despite it being a fan-interpretation devs have outright stated that it is pretty much what happened. It is not included because it is an out-game source, but as theories goes has more in the way of actual proof going for it than this one. You cant declare it one way in one case and another in the other based on personal preference, is what I am saying --77.249.235.60 17:44, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Majority rules. Prove some random unheard of, undocumented, and unintroduced guy ran in and said, "I'm Sheogorath now, bow down to me.", or your argument is invalid. We have evidence, while your agrument is our evidence isn't good enough. If you present the right evidence, I'll change the article myself. This just prove Sheogorath's influence has reached the real world.--Br3admax 17:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not conjecture, it's several characters stating this could happen, this happening at the end of SI, and Sheogorath in Skyrim repeatedly referencing his exploits as the CoC. You see, this is what's called evidence to support our idea. It's not conjecture. Since your story requires the ending to the Shivering Isles not being canon, Sheogorath just saying things coincidentally that suggest he's the CoC, and is virtually backed by nothing but your opinion, I'm going to ignore any further comments until you bother actually supporting your argument. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

(←) I see its pointless to try and discuss things with people when they will not even admit to conjecture being conjecture and the lack of proof being the lack of proof. When people are jumping through hoops to proclaim that some vague statement which can be taken any number of ways must be taken only this one way, based on nothing at all, and when these same people then present to the public something as canon fact without any basis to it aside from this conjecture which is not even admitted as being conjecture, well, then you can understand why the tes wiki is such a major competitor as of this moment. As they say, stagnant water begins to smell. Im sorry for the outburst but this kind of behaviour is increasingly vexing. The majority can proclaim the world is flat for all I care, they better have proof to back it up. Suddenly the situation is reversed for no logical reason and I am the one that must prove that something ambiguous does not mean what some people interpret it to mean, while the logical standpoint of course would be that conjecture is conjecture and not canon fact. Sheesh. Now I know why I get laughed at when I cite you guys for lore. --77.249.235.60 18:02, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I left a post here that said something like this is stupid move on, but since someone "had" to undo this post I left I'll say it again. This is a useless and finished argument until further evidence is provided.Talk pages are for discussion so we are open to it, you just don't have anything to discuss except it's not enough. When I breath fire and kill a bandit, do you honestly think the other bandits discuss if it was a dragon or me.--Br3admax 18:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Which is exactly my point.

You guys seem to decide for yourself what is canon and what not, and when a discussion is even worth it.

Therefore, in my opinion, you are seriously sub-par when it comes to the purposes of data-gatherign on anything that is not copied directly ::from the ck, because the opinion of a small number of people gets presented as canon fact, without any rational validity or proof.

I am done with this discussion now so dont worry but I am seriously dissapointed in the way this supposed data bank is run.

Its not a data bank at all when all it contains are the unfounded and personal opinions of a few administrators and contributors.

--77.249.235.60 18:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

This is my " last " post. We are against the smaller group, which is the opposition here. i'm not going to argue you with you. Bethesda seems to say every main quest is finished. The main quest says as long as I stay in the Shivering Isles I'm Sheogorath. Besides, anyone who laughs at you for not knowing on of the most complicated and debated lores in videogaming history is the real "sub-par" one.--Br3admax 18:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Naming: The Madhouse vs. The Shivering Isles.

Could it be possible that the Plane of Oblivion is in fact called "The Madhouse", while the "Shivering Isles" actually refers to the landmass in the aforementioned Plane of Oblivion where Sheogorath's palace is located? I think that referring to the Shivering Isles as a realm of Oblivion would be like referring to Nirn as Tamriel. Though it is unknown if there are other landmasses in Sheogorath's Realm of Madness, I still think there should be more distinction between the two. Bauglir100 04:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The "Madhouse" is never referred to throughout the actual expansion. The realm is always called the "Shivering Isles". I'm guessing the name was retconned out. --Legoless 13:15, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, how often do people in Tamriel explicitly mention Nirn, outside of books? A lot of characters in Oblivion tend to say "Tamriel" when they mean "Nirn". For all we know, "The Madhouse" could be the name of Sheogorath's plane of Oblivion, while "The Asylums" and "The Shivering Isles" are regions of the Realm of Madness. Perhaps the Shivering Isles are treated as the realm itself, because it is located in the center of the realm, and the home of the Madgod. — Unsigned comment by Bauglir100 (talk • contribs) at 00:57 on 13 April 2012 (GMT)

Without any kind of reference, that's simply speculation and not worth mentioning on the article. We don't know anything about the name "Madhouse". --Legoless 00:39, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

CoC the first

There is a line in this article stating that the CoC is the first mortal to mantle Sheogorath, however we know that Arden-Sul had already done so. And it is quite possible that even Arden Sul was not the first. I'm gonna go ahead and delete the part that claims the CoC is the first to mantle Sheogorath — Unsigned comment by Woodhouse (talk • contribs) at 02:38 on 30 December 2013

Except that Arden-Sul DIDN'T become Sheogorath. The Some believe that he is the true ruler of the Isles, but not that he IS Sheogorath, but rather that Sheogorath is someone else. In any case, it is differing religious beliefs, neither of which is confirmed to be true. Thus, I'm reverting the edit. Jeancey (talk) 02:45, 30 December 2013 (GMT)

I don't think that we can definitely say that the CoC is the first mortal to mantle Sheogorath, and I believe that there is in fact more evidence pointing to Arden-Sul having done it before. Look at the heart imagery in his death, is it not similar to the way that Tiber Septim ripped out the heart of Zurin Arcutus and mantled Lorkhan? Tiber Septim that is also said to have had multiple personalities? Lorkhan, who when having his heart ripped out spawned the creation of Sheogorath, Lorkhan whose heroes are frequently insane i.e Pelinial. Also look at the book "The Predecessors", which states that every thousand years, there are ruins. However, Cylarne is several thousands of years older than any other ruin. I believe that Arden-Sul mantled Sheogorath (similar to how Tiber Septim mantled Lorkhan) but took thousands of years to fully mantle Jyggylag too, thereby keeping the greymarch at bay for several eras. This explanation makes a lot of sense to me, and may not be concrete enough to be included in wiki, but definetly casts enough doubt on the CoC being the first mortal to mantle a daedric prince that I think the statement should be removed Woodhouse (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2013 (GMT)(Woodhouse)

I'd suggest a rewording to "the first known substitution of a Daedric Prince by a mortal.". While we don't know of any other occation this happened, how would we know of it if it had? We certainly can't expect a Daedric Prince substituting mortal to run arround and scream "I've become a Daedra!" all over the place. Unless, of course, this Daedric Prince is Sheogorath, but I digress... What I want to say is that these replacements are usualy of a quiet nature to the people of Mundus except the disappearance of that mortal - but how many people disappear without a trace, especially during magic-involving crysises? -- SarthesArai ^Talk 19:15, 30 December 2013 (GMT)

That would be an improvement but still ignores the mantling done by Arden-Sul and the lull in greymarches described in "The Predecessors".Woodhouse (talk) 21:54, 30 December 2013 (GMT)Woodhouse

The main problem here is that we have no direct evidence of anything you are suggesting. In fact, the texts clearly distinguish between Arden-Sul and Sheogorath, thus meaning that they NEVER became the same person. We have zero evidence to suggest it has happened before and saying that "we wouldn't have evidence of it, so that's enough proof right there" is just silly. We can only use the evidence we have, and that evidence clearly shows that the player character in oblivion is the only known person to ever become a daedric prince. Jeancey (talk) 04:57, 31 December 2013 (GMT)

Texts also differentiate between Ysmir, Tiber, and Zurin, doesn't mean they don't all become/are the same person. With "The Predecessors" and the story of Arden-Sul ripping his heart out in mind, I think there is enough reason to believe that Arden-Sul already did what the CoC did, or at the very least casts enough doubt on the CoC being the first that the statement should be removed. This is one of my favorite bits of lore and I get that there are many different interpretations and that we may not necessarily agree, so hopefully someone else is willing to weigh in on this issue?Woodhouse (talk) 20:01, 31 December 2013 (GMT)Woodhouse

I agree with SarthesArai's rewording "the first known substitution of a Daedric Prince by a mortal", since we don't know of any others, and that's the important clarification we're trying to establish. You may be right in that Arden-Sul did so previously, but that's only one theory. In comparison, we don't know that every Shezarrine mantled Lorkhan, we just believe that they are incarnations of Lorkhan (ie, it's a similar theory, but considered in reverse). Following the Zealot's beliefs, Arden-Sul is already an incarnation of Sheogorath. Following the Heretic's beliefs, Arden-Sul and Sheogorath are separate entities, meaning he never remantled him.

The distinction that I'm trying to make here (personal belief) is that mantling combines more than one entity into one deity (Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus and Ysmir mantled each other and Lorkhan to become Talos), while incarnations are mortal aspects of a deity, and are considered separate entities in their own right (Pelinal is an incarnation of Lorkhan, but never mantled him). --Enodoc (talk) 14:10, 1 January 2014 (GMT)

(←) There's a massive difference between "the first known" and "the first". The first wording implies that there were previous happenings, which I see no suggestion of anywhere besides our own speculation. The second version implies that there no previous, and should be used unless there is evidence that there were previous. An example of the first is the Thrassian Plague being the first known historical event after the Dragon Break. There is a gap of ~800 years when between the last recorded event before the Break and the Plague (though the exact dates of the break are unknown so it could very well be the first). Another is the first undisputed confirmed Dark Brotherhood murder being Pelagius, while we know they had existed for 5-600 years by that time (and an guild of assassins doesn't survive without kills). An example of the second is Alessia forging the first Empire, as we "know" the Empire didn't exist before this time. Another is the first major eruption of Red Mountain. Being a volcano it is highly likely it erupted on the same scale previously considering the time until it erupted a second time, and the voluminous centuries in the Merethic and Dawn eras. But we have evidence that it was the first.

There is no evidence to say Arden-Sul is Sheogorath. Whichever way you go, he is either a god and Sheogorath is a man (separate entities), or else he is the personification of Sheogorath's mortality (somewhat like Pelinal if you like). To say Arden-Sul is Sheogorath in the second version is the equivalent of saying the three aspects of Hircine in Tribunal are Hircine. There is a very distinct difference. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 15:12, 1 January 2014 (GMT)

There should at least be a little line about the speculation of Arden-Sul having done it before hand then. I think that Bethesda's inclusion of "The Predecessors" and the heart motif in Arden-Sul's death cannot be ignored.Woodhouse (talk) 19:48, 1 January 2014 (GMT)Woodhouse

Only in-game speculation is allowed. To your point about The Predecessors, there are 15 technical ruins on the isle, and Ebrocca is the youngest at 1000 years. The book actually suggests there are many more to be found, or have been completely reclaimed by nature, it doesn't suggest that there were no Greymarchs for many millenia after Cylarne was destroyed, that is your original research. If you can actually find any direct evidence to suggest Arden-Sul mantled Sheogorath then please provide it. Repeating the same speculation over and over will get you nowhere. You are looking to hard for hidden meanings in things that are barely related to each other. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 20:37, 1 January 2014 (GMT)

If you don't like "the first known substitution", how about "the only known substitution", silencer? -- SarthesArai ^Talk 18:10, 14 January 2014 (GMT)