Lore talk:Pyandonea

Daggerfall Globe Note

The note on the Daggerfall globe sprite should remain in the Notes section (see what belongs there). The unknown continent has been used in several unofficial fan-generated content (such as these two maps by ArthmodeusD), and while the information is clearly baseless speculation which doesn't belong in the article's main text, the assumption is widespread enough among the fanbase to be worth noting. For what it's worth, Pyandonea was already in existence in Daggerfall-era lore, so the speculation does have a scrap of credibility. —Legoless (talk) 10:57, 16 September 2012 (GMT)

Pyandonea part of Summerset Isles

I've been through every book that references Summerset Isles AND Pyandonea and cannot find a single piece of evidence to support the idea that the two were ever considered 1 territory. I've found multiple references to the Maormer of Pyandonea trying to conquer the Altmer and take over the Summerset Isles which if they had succeeded would make this a supportable fact but as it stands this cannot be proven in any form. The First Aldmeri Dominion was allied with Pyandonea but that is it. Lord Eydvar ^{Talk|Contribs} 18:12, 30 October 2012 (GMT)

UOL

Sponge-felts from the region are manufactured as cleaning products and are even shipped to Tamriel. ref:The Shonni-etta

I don't think this UOL should be included on the page for two reasons. First, and the point I feel is weaker, is that the connection to the "Pyadon" and "Pyandonea" is speculative. After all, it isn't Pyandon, with the proper first n. Secondly, and stronger, is that it isn't doing what UOL is supposed to do: clarifying. It's just adding an extra detail that isn't connected to anything canon, which is expanding, not clarifying. Mindtrait0r (talk) 19:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the second assertion that these details have no place in an article. But for the first thing, I think its a little silly but I think it could atleast be a note in that case. Tarponpet (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Plenty of words have multiple spellings, and names especially get corrupted across regions into being pronounced differently, or depending on the time period, ie "Falcrenth" to "Falkreath". Its obvious Pyadon is equated with Pyandonea, and the time period was in an early era, where names have changed a lot since. Also, sponges are in the games already. This info just clarifies that they're found in Pyandonea as well. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I could maybe see such a thing being included wherever sponges are catalogued, but not here, for the reasons above. Mindtrait0r (talk) 19:57, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's speculative to assume "the Pyadon" refers to Pyandonea based only on that source. It's spelled wrong if that's the case. —⁠Legoless (talk) 20:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I likewise agree that it shouldn't be on the page based on that connection. I also agree that it's not expanding on anything, it's a wholly new detail, and that's not what UOL is supposed to be used for. Jeancey (talk) 20:37, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that kind of similar UOL detail can be used depending on how it was used, like if you were listing many canon things that are imported from there, could throw that in as a related instance. Though I guess im not arguing for this instance in particular. ~Tarponpet (talk) 20:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

If speaking plainly its clear that Pyadon = Pyandonea (much like Ceya-Tar became Ceyatatar), and we already know that sponges are found in verdant waters, Pyandonea has verdant waters, and some materials from Pyandonea make their way to Tamriel, so the text is just bridging a gap for us to say sponges are in Pyandonea. I'll disengage, solely on the grounds that not everyone can agree on exactly what Pyadon is which is understandable, not on the other takes, and I share Tarp's position that I'm not arguing any further for this instance in particular. The revert can stay, I'll consider this matter resolved and don't see a need to discuss further. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Wanted to add that MK said that in his writings "to save time, in lieu of using an appropriate adjectival for an "exotic" item, use a place name instead. make sure this place name is either not on a map, or spelled differently than it is on the map" so it seems clear to me that the author's intent was that Pyadon = Pyandonea. Not re-opening the discussion, just wanted to note this here for future reference in case someone looks into it again. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 18:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

PGE source (moved from Lore talk:Thras)

In the interest of backing up my usage of PGE, here's exactly why I believe it claims Thras (and Pyanondea) are continents. It almost all comes from the opening three sentences.

"Tamriel is of course just one continental system on the planet Nirn. How many others are out there is a matter of conjecture, for the oceans of Mundus are as dangerous to travel as the pathways of Oblivion. The following have had some influence on Tamriel, but perhaps other lands, far away, also exist, waiting inclusion in some future edition of this Guide."

To me, this states that the entries in the list are all continental systems on the planet Nirn. Here's a shortened version which I believe supports this:

"Tamriel is of course just one continental system on the planet Nirn. [...] The following have had some influence on Tamriel"

Since there is no noun attached to "the following", it must be referencing a previous noun in the passage. The only approriate two nouns in the prior section are "oceans" and "continental system", and ocean is obviously not intended, because the topic listed are all landmasses. Thus, all the landmasses listed are considered continental systems. If it were to be excluding Thras (and Pyandonea), it'd have to say "The following landmasses have had some influence on Tamriel" or something of the sort. As it does not, it must be referring to something previous in the sentence, of which being considered to be a continent is the only applicable one.

Plus, 'continent' is a pretty arbitrary term anyhow. Mindtrait0r (talk) 16:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I swear there was a discussion about this exact thing several years ago, but I cannot find it anywhere... In any case, I kinda view it as a continent in the way that Australia was considered a continent. It's clearly smaller than the others, but it's so isolated from the other large landmasses that it doesn't really fit to call it part of them, and it's too big to simply be an island. Continent seems fine. I'm less onboard with calling Thras a continent, because from what we know, it is significantly smaller than either Pyandonea or Tamriel... If we had a map, I would bet that Thras is relatively close to Pyandonea, and probably part of the same "continental system", but there's no way to prove that, that's just my "gut feeling" about both which is, of course, useless for deciding these sorts of things...

In terms of actual evidence: ESO refers to the "Thrassian Archipelago" and when approaching Thras they talk about the "the islands of the Sloads". The Sloads are said to "begin life on the Thrassian Atolls". All of these are terms used for islands, not a continent. Atolls are VERY small, and an archipelago isn't anywhere close to a continental system.

Pyandonea is also referred to in this way by ESO: "Pyandonea, a sad and swampy archipelago of malodorous islets", "Pyandonea, ""The Mist-Veiled Isles", "the Maormer islands of Pyandonea", "island kingdom of Pyandonea, an archipelago in the southern ocean", "shrouded isle of Pyandonea", "Their home of Pyandonea is an isle surrounded by impenetrable mists", "great isle of Pyandonea"

Not a single source in ESO refers to either as a Continent. Given that, I think we should call them islands, not continents. While older sources might imply that they are continents, ESO is pretty consistent in how it refers to them, as island systems not continents. Referring to them as such should probably be done for the larger pages, with perhaps a line on each page that says "some sources imply they are larger, perhaps continents" something like that, to rope in the older sources. Jeancey (talk) 16:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Edit: TLDR I'm suggesting the status quo for the Thras page, but a change for Pyandonea. :) Jeancey (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd argue that Pyandonea should retain continent being in the intro due to Wolf Queen also referring to it as such. Continent has always been a fairly arbtirary term in real life as you point out with Australia, and we don't even know that continent means the same very loose definition in TES, which could potentially mean archipelagos are perfectly fine being continents. Of course, the contradiction in terminology should be noted though. Mindtrait0r (talk) 16:45, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Pyandonea absolutely should remain as continent. Island and contiennt arent mutually exclusive. Tarponpet (talk) 17:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There's only a small number of sources that refer to it as a continent, and a MUCH larger number that refer to it as an island, an isle or an archipelago. Like I said, my gut feeling is that it is much larger than that... there just seems to be more sources calling it as island or group of islands, and basically nothing modern calling it a continent. I don't think we should be preferencing new over older or older over newer, just based on quantity, it should be an island that some people refer to as a continent, rather than a continent that the vast majority of sources refer to as not a continent.... If there were modern sources that called it a continent too, I would agree with you, but the continent sources fully disappear and the island sources continue (and there are LOTS of them, not just one or two). Jeancey (talk) 17:10, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

You do realize Oceania, an IRL continent, is also just a "group of islands"? This is a ridiculous argument for "anti-continent Pyandonea" and I genuinely can't see where this is coming from. Not to mention it's coupled with the "not mentioned in the recent years of lore = non canon" mentality which imo is even more ridiculous 88.176.30.48 17:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC) (This is CoolBlast, i forgor to login on this laptop)

This isn’t an issue of conflicting sources though. There’s no source that explicitly claims Pyandonea *is not* a continent, but there is a source that states that it is. Not every source that refers to the landmasses of Tamriel, Atmora, Akavir, or Yokuda use the word continent either, that doesn’t make them not continents. Barring a source that calls the continent nature of Pyandonea into question, there would be no reason to divert from its current description of an island continent, which is an existing irl concept. Dcking20 (talk) 17:21, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Continent and Island very much are mutually exclusive according to the national geographic and Britannic. https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/island/ https://www.britannica.com/science/island I say for Pyandomea we call it an island kingdom mention that it's sometimes considered a continent. Thras isn't directly called a continent though, it's mostly just grouped with some others. I think it's also worth noting that Ted Peterson, who authored the guide, said in a separate interview that Thras is to small to be a continent. Also Oceania is really only considered a continent when grouped with Australia. Storm105 (talk) 17:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

(←) The whole "Nothing doesn't say it is a continent" is just a silly argument. If something isn't a thing, you generally don't go around telling people it isn't that thing. No one says Summerset isn't a continent, but a single reference of someone saying it is wouldn't suddenly cause us to overhaul everything that currently isn't calling it that. If it was a continent, SOME modern sources would call it that. But they just.... aren't doing that.... The sources calling it a continent are older, and significantly less numerous, and the sources calling it an island are newer and significantly more plentiful. We can't base this on how we "feel" it should be, we have to base this on the sources we have, and the vast majority are calling it an island or a group of islands. We 100% should still be mentioning that some sources call it a continent, but that shouldn't be the primary designation. Jeancey (talk) 17:35, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

From my reading of this, the two desired outcomes for this are incredibly close. One focusing more on the majority of sources referring to it as an island, and the other on the fact that it has been referred to as a continent, but neither wanting to reject the mentions of the other. I think either would be fine, but I have a preference for it focusing on the sources that refer to it as island first continent-second, unless additional sources can be found leaning it more towards continent. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The difference is we know based on in game evidence and a plethora of textual information that Summerset is an island chain province. We don’t know this same thing about Pyandonea, we know it’s a southern homestead of the Maormer with multiple sources referring to it as a continent. Also, since we are commenting on the silliness of opinions, I find your "old source vs new source" argument quite, quite silly. For one I simply reject the idea of newer sources on a matter taking any kind of precedence over older ones in general, but for two even when that argument is used it’s usually reserved for the "older scrolls" games before some lore revamps of the setting such as Arena and Daggerfall. The Pge3 source is from Oblivion, the second to most recent game in the mainline series, and the other source the Wolf Queen, originated in Morrowind and was featured in the most recent game in the mainline series that still gets official updates to this day in Skyrim. Until we have evidence to the contrary, there is no reason to divert from referring to Pyandonea as an island continent, an existing concept that allows for the multiple sources that refer to it as an island, and a continent. Dcking20 (talk) 18:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Island is mutually exclusive with continent. The largest island in the world is Greenland, not Australia, even though Australia is four times larger than greenland. The sources calling it an island are explicitly calling it NOT a continent. There's only one source that explicitly calls it a continent, which is one person in one Wolf Queen book. PGE3 groups it among "Continental systems" which also includes the mythical/not currently real Aldmeris and the "we all agree" not a continent Thras. PGE1 explicitly lays out what the known continents of Nirn are (Tamriel, Atmora, Yokuda, Akavir and Aldmeris), and then talks about Pyandonea later on, meaning it is explicitly calling it NOT a continent. There are significantly more sources calling it not a continent then calling it a continent. I think AKB accurately sums up the best route to go, which is calling it an island, and then separately stating that one source refers to it as a continent. Jeancey (talk) 18:31, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

PGE3 doesn't actively call it a continent though, it just groups it with other lands outside of Tamriel. Wolf Queen is really the only source I've been able to find that directly calls it one. Considering that Ted Peterson, who wrote the PG3 doesn't consider Thras a continent, it's pretty clear to me that the PGE3 is not actually suggesting that they are continents, but rather that these locations are outside of Tamriel's continental system Storm105 (talk) 18:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that. Jeancey (talk) 18:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I mean Mindtraitor explained the logic up top about why the statement appears to be made in Pge3 that the locations listed thereafter are indeed continents. That said, following your logic that since Ted doesn’t consider Thras a continent thus he wasn’t making the claim it was there, ok sure. But this would mean that he *did* intend to state Pyandonea was, as he is also the author of the Wolf Queen, the source that you concede directly refers to Pyandonea as a continent. Dcking20 (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I mean that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that far more sources claim Pyandonea isn't a continent than ones that do. Which means that I don't think it should be primarily listed as a continent, but as an island with a note mentioning that it's sometimes considered a continent. And I wholeheartedly disagree with Mindtraitor's interpretationStorm105 (talk) 19:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

(←) As brought up on the Discord, the TES definition of continent seems to include archipelagoes. The Ubiquitous Sinking Isle refers to pre-destruction Yokuda as the "Yokudan Isles". While there might be other sources that claim Yokuda used to be a continuous landmass and not an archipelago, the source is still sufficient for proving that the continent of Yokuda is thought by some to have been an archipelago. And furthermore, the remnants of Yokuda - undisputably an archipelago - are referred to as a continent in Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition's prologue. Thus, the sources which call Pyandonea an archipelago (or island/isle, since I believe we can all agree it is indeed an archipelago and not one single island) are not stating it isn't a continent. Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Realizing this is becoming more of a Pyandonea discussion, we should probably move over to Lore talk:Pyandonea. Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:23, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) But those modern sources exist that are calling Yokuda a continent. Yokuda is basically the opposite situation as Pyandonea. Few sources but not 0 referring to it as Isles, while many more are referring to it as a continent. So we, correctly, are referring to it as a continent. By that logic, we SHOULD be calling Pyandonea an island and not a continent. when 95% of sources are referring to it EXCLUSIVELY as an island, why are we prioritizing the single source that is explicitly calling it a continent. They aren't ever referring to it as an island continent, ONLY island, isle, archipelago. (also, yeah, we should probably move it). Jeancey (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Moved from Lore talk:Thras Jeancey (talk) 20:28, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The book you mentioned doesn't describe Yokuda as a continent either though. It describes it as a sunk island and implies that it's no longer there at all, which contridicts PGE1. As such it's most likely an error Lailfin made when writing the book, since Reginus Buca confirms in High Isle that Yokuda is still there. And the remnants of Yokuda are most likely referred to as a continent in acknowledgement of the fact it used to be a much larger whole, like India being called a subcontinent. Plus we don't know how big Pyandonea is in comparison to modern Yokuda anyway. Some people could very well consider Yokuda to still be large enough to fitStorm105 (talk) 20:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

PGE1 is enough to say there are those in-universe who believe an archipelago can be a continent. Reading it as saying it is actually a subcontinent only being referred to as a continent for simplicity/acknowledgement of its former size seems like blatant speculation and original research to me. Ultimately, I think we should be calling it an archipelago which is a disputed continent. Seems like the best way to use all the sources. AFAIK there are two lists of continents that don't include Pyan, those being PGE1 and Annotated Anuad, and two references to it indeed being a continent, Wolf Queen and PGE3 (which could be rephrased as "included alongside continental systems" if anyone is diehard against my reasoning above). That cancels out and leaves us with "island" and "archipelago" references which, per PGE1's inclusion of Yokuda's remnants as a continent, are inconclusive. So, with (semi) equal sources for and against continental status directly, and a lot calling it an archipelago, we say it is an archipelago which is a disputed continent. Seems right to me. Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

If those are cancelling out, then we have ZERO sources saying continent, lol. You can't assume all islands and archipelagos are continents, unless told otherwise.... All of the other continents have multiple sources calling them continents from ESO (which has, by far, the most elder scrolls content and touches on LOTS of subjects). Pyandonea has ZERO references to being a continent there. You can call it a retcon or something if you like, but by all modern standards, it shouldn't be considered a continent. I don't understand why AKB's suggestion above shouldn't be used. It calls Pyandonea as what the vast majority of sources call it, and then references the single (maybe two) sources that call it a continent. Also, if we are including lists of continents as examples, there are multiple other lists of continents that don't include Pyandonea, including in Mysterious Akavir. Jeancey (talk) 20:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Unless I'm misunderstanding, AKB and I aren't disagreeing? We have basically the same suggestion, to go with archipelago as the primary term to describe the area as it is correct no matter which way, but still cite the source(s) which claim it is a continent and mention that this is disputed by other lists not including it. An archipelago and disputed continent. Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah..... I was under the impression you were suggesting the current "island continent" remain as the term being used. Jeancey (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea of claiming its continent status is disputed. It’s never explicitly stated to *not* be a continent and in one source explicitly *is*. If anything, perhaps it would be appropriate to say in the opening line something along the lines of "Pyandonea home to Maormer is a southern landmass that has variously been described as an island,(source source) an archipelago(source source), and a continent(source source)." Our job isn’t to claim a conflict of sources when we can’t without a shadow of a doubt prove there are any. Something like this seems like a safer way to play nicely with all the sources, and hopefully move away from this ridiculous "modern sources" argument, that seems to be working on the ground rules that only Eso is a modern source. Dcking20 (talk) 20:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

(←) It's not so much about modern sources as number and quality of sources. So "variously described as an island (list 8-15 sources), an archipelago (list 4-10 sources) and a continent (list one source). Why are we giving equal weight to that? It makes zero sense. Things get retconned all the time, especially when the original sources are just one off mentions, and then it gets fleshed out later. I really don't understand this hard and fast "well it said it in morrowind in a single line in a single volume of a book series, so it's equal weight to the dozen+ sources that say something else and never ever ever refer to it that way." If a single source called Akavir an island, would you support changing that page to "a landmass variously described as an island and a continent"? Undue Weight should not be given to a single source when multiple sources clearly say something else. I've already explained how lack of calling it NOT a continent is an insane argument. You cannot prove a negative. There are zero sources that say it ISN'T a living turtle with trees on its back. That doesn't make it true. Jeancey (talk) 21:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

You can not be both a continent and an Island/arhipelago, they are mutually exclusive terms and the sources that call one of them an archipelago also doesn't call it a continent. Saying that nobody directing saying it's "not" a continent doesn't matter because calling it an archipelago actively does that. Storm105 (talk) 21:08, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Mindtraitor shared a source that bumps heads with that claim in regards to Tes Storm. Dcking20 (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

That source never calls it an archipelago. Jeancey (talk) 21:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

But it is the book included with Redguard, whose included map of Yokuda shows it as an archipelago. It also specifies on the Hammerfell page that not of all it sunk beneath the ocean, just most of it. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

And I already argued against that interpretation on the grounds that their source doesn't refer to Yokuda as a continent anywhere, meaning it's not saying that Yokuda is both a continent and an archipelago, but that the author doesn't consider it a continent at all. I've also pointed out the other error the author makes by claiming that Yokuda is completely gone, which means they're likely claiming by mistake that the map from Redguard is pre destruction Yokuda instead of modern Yokuda like PGE1 claims. Either something is an archipelago or it's a continent, you can't be both and so far nobody has presented any sources calling them both just different sources calling them different things. That's not evidence they're the same thing, it's just evidence people disagree over it's classification. Storm105 (talk) 21:21, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

You're conflating two of my sources. The Ubiquitous Sinking Isle stated that Yokuda was completely destroyed, and it hasn't been brought up in a while. PGE 1 never claims it to have been completely destroyed, in fact it is explicitly referenced as still being around ca. 2E 864 (I think that's the right year) and having only most of it sank beneath the sea, not all. PGE 1 refers to Yokuda along with Tamriel, Akavir, and Atmora, the universally agreed upon continents, and Aldmeris, which is specified as "echoes" of it. It is also mentioned in the same breath as Tamriel being the largest of the continents. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not conflating anything PGE1 doesn't use the term island or archiplego to describe Yokuda whatsoever, which means the author does not consider it one. The fact that some other source written by a different author isn't proof it's considered both an archiplego and a continent, it means that the two authors disagree with one another. And PGE1 mentioning that Yokuda is still there backs up what I was saying, that "The Ubiquitous Sinking Isle" is a less reliable source in the first place. The fact that someone disagrees with it being a continent should be acknowledged, but it's absolutely not evidence it's considered both by the same people. Just like how Europe is it's own continent or a region of Eurasia depending on who you ask. Storm105 (talk) 21:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I am still in favor of simply keeping Island Continent. I don't beleive there's any actual contraction by sources also calling it an island or archipelago.Tarponpet (talk) 21:45, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

By definition archiplego, island and continent are all mutually exclusive terms. So unless someone presents a source that says they can be the same thing it's a contradiction. Storm105 (talk) 21:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

(←) The author of PGE1 doesn't need to explicitly call Yokuda an archipelago, since the box of the game the book is included in has the Yokudan archipelago on it. And they date to the same exact year, 2E 864. They're part of the same product, TES: Redguard.

But even if you don't hold the IRL perspective / Doylist perspective with any weight, the author doesn't need to explicitly call the Yokudan remnants an archipelago, because all the other sources we have for the Yokudan remnants call it one / show it as one. Every mention of Summerset needn't call it an island, because we already know it is an island. By looking at the map packaged in the same box as the PGE, we can see that Yokuda's remnants is an archipelago, so the author's lack of outright confirmation on that front (and there is still non-outright confirmation in the form of the "mostly sunken" comment in the Hammerfell chapter) is irrelvant. If there is a single source calling the remnants of Yokuda a single landmass, I will take back this argument. But I have yet to find one. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

And to tack this on real quick, The Ubiquitous Sinking Isle does refer to Yokuda as both an archipelago (Yokudan Isles) and a continent. Same source. Whether or not Yokuda was fully destroyed isn't particularly relevant, this is just to show that the terms can be used alongside eachother in TES. Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Great catch! Hopefully makes this a done deal.Dcking20 (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

It does not because it has absolutely nothing to really do with Pyandonea. Zero sources call Pyandonea an island and a continent. Or an Archipelago and a continent. One source calls it a continent and about 20 call it something that isn't a continent and doesn't mean continent. We should be using what Tamriel is using, which absolutely 100% isn't continent lol. We can mention the source calling it a continent elsewhere, but "island continent" is a term which has NEVER been used to refer to it. Jeancey (talk) 22:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Goal post movement spotted! Why waste time earlier in the discussion using the terms not being used in conjunction for Yokuda as a point in your favor if you were going to merely say "has nothing to do with Pyandonea" when such a source was ultimately found? The answer is because of course this is relevant. The source Mindtraitor displayed proves that in the context of tes, these terms can be used interchangeably without conflicting with one another. As stated earlier in this discussion, island continent as a concept absolutely exists irl, and the lines between islet, island, and continent is pretty arbitrary and blurry to begin with so I’m not sure what the big hang up with that was. That aside, mindtraitors source proves what it proves, and scarcity of sources for it aside, we are not in a place where we can discount the landmasses description as a continent as a conflicting source. If the irl term of island kingdom isn’t satisfactory, we should move to something closer to my earlier proposal of listing off the locations various descriptions such as island, archipelago, and continent. Dcking20 (talk) 22:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Oooo I'm definitely supportive of changing it to island kingdom instead of continent. Jeancey (talk) 23:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant to say island continent, but island kingdom is indeed yet another descriptor for it. I don’t know if it necessarily pertains to this discussion though, unless we are just looking for something more vague to call it in the opening line. Even if we do go that route I think somewhere in the body there should still be acknowledgment of the landmasses various descriptions of island, archipelago, and continent. Dcking20 (talk) 23:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The Ubiquitous Sinking Isle has multiple termonology issues and is not a reliable source in the first place, it says Yokuda is one singlar island in one part, says its a group of islands, in another part, then says it's a continent in another part. Along with erroneously claiming that it's completely gone. Tamriel does not have some special terminology where real life thermology suddenly doesn't apply, especially when it's trying to convey something to real world people. So the answer for why it calls it both is because the real life author doesn't know the difference, and isn't concerned very much for accuracy when the focus is just on the fact that it doesn't exist anymore. They're simply just listing what they've seen other people call it in different books. Storm105 (talk) 02:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Why make several calls earlier in this post to refute your claim that an island, archipelago, and a continent aren’t considered the same thing in any source in Tes, only to then denounce the source as unreliable when a source containing all three was found? Thats goalpost movement. The reliability of the text aside, it’s a proof of concept that makes us unable to make any sweeping statements in regards to Pyandonea, which is similarly to Yokuda, referred to as all three concepts. Dcking20 (talk) 11:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

(←) I think we should classify Pyandonea primarily as an archipelago, but acknowledge that it has been referred to as both an island and a continent in various sources. —⁠Legoless (talk) 16:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Because regardless of the continent argument something can't be both an island and islands, yet Yokuda is addressed as both. That's not proof of a concept that's proof the author has no idea what it is. And the sources that call Yokuda a continent alone far far far outway any refering to it as an island or archiplego, which is the exact opposite of pyandomea. Storm105 (talk) 17:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Not responding to anyone in particular, just wanted to chime in. It is weird to think a continent can also be an island, considering Tamriel is an island, and even in real life all continents are technically large islands, so its completely reasonable to say Pyandonea is both an archipelago and a continent (much like Oceania or Australia). I'm cool to word in a way that states Pyandonea is referred to as both a continent or part of a different continent. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 18:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

We've already had a talk about that earlier. According to both Britannica and the National Geographic, Australia is not considered an island and that they both agree that islands are a smaller classification than a continent so they can't overlap. In regards to Oceania it is the Australian mainland that's considered a continent and near by islands like New Zealand and New Guinea are just considered to be part of the continent because of location, like how the Carribean is considered to be part of North America. Storm105 (talk) 19:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's my proposal for the intro change with the above discussion in mind Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Mindtrait0r's Proposal

Pyandonea
Type	Archipelago
Demonym(s)	Pyandonean

A Pyandonean ship

Pyandonea, meaning "the Veil of Mist" or "the Mist-Veiled Isles", is an archipelago located to the far south of Tamriel. It is home to the elusive Maormer, a race of Mer exiled there by the ancient Aldmer from Aldmeris. For all of recorded history, King Orgnum has ruled the land. The archipelago is located within the Southern Sea.

Some sources refer to Pyandonea as a continent or as part of a continental system. However, other lists of the known continents of Nirn exclude Pyandonea. Others erroneously refer to it as a single island.

References (included here so it doesn't default to page bottom)

I would remove the erroneously part from the last sentence about the single island, just to leave it up to the readers to weigh the sources over us deciding for them, but outside of that I like this change just fine! Dcking20 (talk) 21:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The only issue I have with this proposed outline is the last sentence, since I think those are similar to references to Hawaii (i.e. Could be used alone to refer to the entire island chain, or to specifically the largest island in that chain). There IS a single island in the Archipelago called Pyandonea. So references to it as a single island aren't really erroneous, they are just referring to the main island. Other than that, I 100% support this proposed text. Jeancey (talk) 21:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Mindtrait0r's proposal. I don't think we have enough information about Pyandonea to argue that there is a single island there also called Pyandonea. I'd rather say it's an error until we get more details. Storm105 (talk) 03:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)