Lore talk:Nede

Two links in Nirn namespace

This page has two links to the Nirn namespace. I was going to shift them to Tamriel namespace, but I thought maybe the Nirn namespace is a future plan? Can a moderator confirm this or let me know I can shift these links? --Actreal 21:52, 12 June 2006 (EDT)

teaching the controversy

Someone should probably write the alternative story, that the Nedes are the aboriginal inhabitants of Tamriel who, unlike most of the others, never left the Syarry Heart, where *all* mortal life originated.

In this case the alternative version is best supported by facts other than the unquestioning blather of history books and makes more sense.— Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 19:30 on 14 March 2008 (GMT)

I'll gladly lead a glorious coup of information, but my knowledge of hyperlinking and html wouldn't make it so pretty.— Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 21:25 on 18 March 2008 (GMT)

What's the Syarry Heart? Where did this information come from? Is there any proof? Michaeldsuarez^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 18:03, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

It is stated explicitly in Nu-Mantia, inferred from frontier, conquest, accomodation, and makes more sense than the other story when given equal press.

"Do not believe the written histories. All life started on the Starry Heart of Dawn's Beauty, Tamriel."

No proof, but there is no proof for the former either. It only becomes clear when the lore if looked at as a whole, bearing in mind the nature of Tamriel and its position as the center of Nirn. 'Humans from Atmora' doesn't stack up. The Nedes were a distinct cultural group, and the Kothringi were known to be aboriginal. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 00:31 on 23 March 2008 (GMT)

You believe what Mankar Camoran said? The Mankar Camoran and Lorkhan articles already talk about this. However, this isn't and shouldn't be considered a fact until a more reliable source is considered. You must remember that Mankar Camoran is a crazy puppet of Mehrunes Dagon and your enemy. As for your comment about the Nedes not coming from Atmora, there aren't any evidence at all in-game, so it shouldn't be included in the article. We only include facts and such rather than fanon and speculation in this Wiki. --Michaeldsuarez^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 22:04, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

(←) Nu-Mantia isn't from Mankar Camoran, it's from Moth Priests reading the Elder Scrolls and divinging with the Amulet of Kings.

As for only including facts... that must be difficult for you. Elder Scrolls lore has very few facts. Tell me that again when the account of the creation of Nirn isn't a paraphrased ***********Children's Story*********** — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 19:24 on 23 March 2008 (GMT)

Sorry, but this "Nu-Mantia" doesn't seem to appear anywhere other than Mankar Camoran's Mythic Dawn Commentaries. What do you use as your source. Also, your argument should include a valid source that explanins Nirn's creation. You can't made things up on this site. --Michaeldsuarez^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 21:28, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Look harder. Nu-Mantia Intercept

And there's my other source: Frontier, Conquest...

As for the article of Creationg, it should be scrapped in favor of something based on this: The Monomyth

And until that happens, quibbling over the validity of the sources above will be foolish, so don't start.

The origins of the nedes is now a consensus among those who pay attention to such things. Alessia was no Atmoran. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 20:12 on 25 March 2008 (GMT)

Sorry, I though you were referring to the Nedes in Skyrim. Also, the Nu-Mantia Intercept doesn't appear in-game. Thanks for the information. Sorry for everything. You can expand on this in some of the articles. --Michaeldsuarez ^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 19:46, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Controversy

Settle down, please. The wiki is not an avenue for personal attacks. We can disagree without getting nasty.

The creation of Nirn, according to everything we've seen from Bethesda, is a subject highly debated even among its inhabitants. Michael Kirkbride offers us several creation myths precisely to indicate that no particular belief is the "correct" one. Even Mankar Camoran's insane babbling was added to Oblivion for a reason. You don't seriously think the developers simply forgot about all the contradictions he makes, do you? The entire "revelation" section of Paradise was intended to challenge our most deeply held beliefs about the origin of Nirn, and maybe, just maybe, give us a taste of a new "myth".

I agree with the idea that the differing in-lore views of how Tamriel came to be, and the anthropological spread of her peoples, should be equally represented on the wiki. Please do so with respect for the other views given to us by Bethesda. After all, these aren't "our" myths - they're theirs. This wiki is intended to illuminate, not indoctrinate. --Kementari 16:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Exactly. So shouldn't the wiki reflect that instead of doing the opposite? Simple as that.(And I should add that the Monomyth isn't a creation story but simply a document mirroring exactly that controversy that makes no claim but draws comparisons.) — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 00:44 on 26 March 2008 (GMT)

Feel free to add constructively to the page. Opposing viewpoints, delivered politely, enhance our understanding. --Kementari 20:51, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Exactly, you proved your point already. You don't to wait for the change to happen. You can do it yourself. --Michaeldsuarez ^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 20:54, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Theories of Expansion

The different schools of thought ought to be titled as such. "Out-of-Atmora Theory" is good; further down it's confusing. Forgive me for nitpicking instead of fixing, but I actually haven't got the time right now to devote the appropriate research time to ensuring the subject is portrayed correctly. --Kementari 22:01, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Just tweaked the heading. That better. And I've removed the first sentence of 'Nedes in Cyrodiil' because it's just a strange idea, nevermind that it contradicts Frontier, Conquest, Accomodation. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 02:20 on 26 March 2008‎ (GMT)

Excellent. Thanks! --Kementari 22:45, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I was editing the page at the same time, so I've made an attempt to merge the changes I'd been implementing with your changes. I originally left the two sentences you deleted in place, but now having seen your reasons for deleting them, I've taken them out again. --Nephele^Talk 23:35, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I may as well flesh out the first theory as well. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

Appraisal of the two theories

If the last two sentences of the first paragraph stay at all, they should be in their entirety, as I feel that their meaning was quietly twisted. Michael Kirkbride confirms the origins of Nedes here: http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=856746&st=20 That is the rationale for my description of the two theories. It should be mentioned. I tried not to take sides with my edits.Temple-Zero 23:38, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

I'll probably move them to a Notes section for the sake of style. Lemme just go find the right format.Temple-Zero 19:25, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Could someone explain to me why the references section doesn't appear in text, ready to be edited? Is it because it is referred from hidden citations embedded in the article itself?Temple-Zero 22:22, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Each of the text snippets for the references are embedded in the main text, in between <ref>...</ref> tags. So at the place where you want the ¹ to appear in text, you add the reference that's relevant. The wiki then automatically generates the little numbers, the cross links, etc. And puts the list of all the references at the place requested with the <references/> tag. There are a few other tricks, but that's the basics.

If you just want to move some details to notes, you might be best off just creating a Notes section. For example, Lore:Anticlere -- not necessarily the best example, but it's the first one that came to mind, and at least gives you an idea of the typical formatting. --Nephele^Talk 23:45, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Out of Atmora

I'm not advocating for the removal of the theory (well, of course I am, but I don't want to start any other insurrections) but is is wrong as it stands now. According to the most recent lore and insights on ancient history the Nedes are not what Out-of-Atmora says they are. The Abadal-a lists these tribes and ethnicities (my comments are in brackets): "kothri,[Kothringi] nede, al-gemha, men-of-'kreath (though these were later known to be imported from the North)[Falkreath, listed as separate from the Nedes, who were not imported from the north, like the others], keptu, men-of-ge... ...al-hared, men-of-ket, others." It is unlikely that the Nedes are ancestor-race of all these identities, and it requires a lot of mental acrobatics to reconcile the source with Out-of-Atmora. So the article needs to be updated. I can't do it, because I know Out-of-Atmora to be wrong, and that it is a conflict for a reason.Temple-Zero 19:29, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

That's one book. Many others mention Out-Of-Atmora. Both theories need to be mentioned. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 01:08, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

That's a non-statement. Did you read that post at all?Temple-Zero 01:20, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm going to need to check the sources, but I don't think it is claimed that the Nedes were the progenitors of all men, just that they were the Proto-Nords. No source accounts for the other tribes in the Song of Pelinal, who are put on an even plane as the irrefutably indigenous Kothringi. These man cannot have disappeared spontaneously- they are half the blood in the Cyro-Nordic mix. The question is changing, I think. The presence of large populations of indigenous Tamriellic humans is now inarguable- it is only a question if the Nedics were among them. Because its sources are so vague, Out of Atmora will need some careful re-writing to prevent it falling apart under its own weight.Temple-Zero 16:13, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Keptu et al

The Song of Pelinal names human peoples in Cyrodiil other than Nedes, Nords and Kothringi. Out-of-Atmora does not address this new development. As I read it, these are cultural groups/races (a negligible distinction) like their better-documented counterparts, and since there is no record of them having emigrated from Atmora, are indigenous like the Kothringi. As such, the conflict in history is only a matter of the original homeland of the Nedes, not the origins of the entire human race and the settlement of Cyrodiil. Both articles should be amended to reflect this, but before I go and do so, is there anyone who sees it differently? Temple-Zero 20:34, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure what you mean... this is the article about Nedes, so the other races aren't all that important. It doesn't change either hypothesis. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 02:32, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

It makes both articles incomplete, as if you right about the history of a race, you obviously have to mention something besides the race itself. I wrote parts of both articles without this insight, so both are a little misleading. Nedes could be, in terms of Out of Atmora, one of many names for Atmorans that were as culturally divergent as elves (I don't see anyone arguing for this one) or part of a separate generation of Atmorans arbitrarily distinct from the Nords living amongst other indigenous tribes in Cyrodiil and presumably High Rock. Indigenous theory would only need to be clarified, as it doesn't need thirty pounds of apologism to make it possible. This would also raise questions as to whether Bretons have indigenous, northern, and elven blood, or just elven and northern, and what separates a nord from a nede when they are contemporaries. Temple-Zero 10:31, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

Notes

"And for the last time... ...Nedes != Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime."

Yes, Nephele, that is the only source for that quote. It's not really a lore document so much as something posted in response to a forum conversation. I assume MK wrote it on the spot in order to respond to a debate that had origins on the wrong side of the Fourth Wall. I don't intend it as a source, but as an explanation of the the out-of-world, real-life discrepancies that I had to attempt to resolve using an in-world voice. I think it's a little confusing.Temple-Zero 14:56, 27 February 2009 (EST)

cleanup

On the contrary, the only out of game lore used (as facts, though of course obscure texts always provide analytical insight) is from the official PGEs and forum quotes not presented as sources, already properly separated and cited. So before prodding, please explain here what material you specifically take issue with, causing your view to change from a year ago when I asked your opinion on the new article.Temple-Zero 00:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not prodding it - I'm marking it for cleanup. Neither has my view changed. One problem is the naming of developers in the main body of text, albeit in a Note. The fact that Kuhlmann and Kirkbride have made relevant comments can be included but needs to be done better. At the moment, the written-as-inhabitant text - which is how Lore articles are supposed to be written - comes to a screeching halt and then we get thrown into the Real World. Additionally there are at least two spelling mistakes. Marking an article with multiple concerns is the correct thing to do. Please do not remove the tag again unless you have addressed them. –rpeh •T•C•E• 07:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Since I assume the in-character dev comments would be inadmissible as sources, how could it be done better?Temple-Zero 15:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Notes

(moved from the article)

Bethesda Developer Kurt Kuhlmann posted the following in-character opinion through his alter-ego, Hasphat Antabolis on the Bethesda Softworks Forums: "...The hoary old "Out of Atmora" theory has been widely discredited (no reputable archaeologist would publicly support it these days), but the Imperial Geographers continue to beat the drum of the Nordic Fatherland in the best tradition of the Septim Empire. They seem to think that the imprimature of officialdom gives their outdated scholarship added weight -- which, unfortunately, it appears to in the eyes of the ever-gullible public which continues to snap up the latest Pocket Guides along with the rest of their Imperial Certified pablum."<ref group="OOG">in the words of Hasphat Antabolis (Kurt Kuhlmann) [http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=639215&st=60]. Post #74. A rebuttal by the author of the 3rd PGE can be found above</ref>

Former Developer and freelance Elder Scrolls writer Michael Kirkbride also posted an in-character explanation of the controversy (which is, in part, caused by disagreements between several writers): "...the accounts of the origins of Men differ from culture to culture. Note how the somewhat dubious scholarship of the 3rd Edition Pocket Guide to the Empire asserted that Nedics were the progenitors to the Nords, having come to Tamriel from the cold and bitter wastes of the Atmoran continent sometime during the Merethic (Mythic) Era, flying in the face of previous studies. The most famous of these, of course, is Gwylim Press’ own “Frontier, Conquest, and Accomodation,” which portrays the Nedics as a Mannish race indigenous to Tamriel, extant and flourishing long before the arrival of Ysgramor’s ancestors. In any case, the truth of prehistoric Man is most likely lost in the god-time impossibilities of the Dawn, where no absolute answers will ever come on any subject at all."<ref group="OOG">''Totemic Traditions in Atmoran Culture'', as quoted by [http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=639215&st=40&p=9272189&#entry9272189 Michael Kirkbride].</ref>

The links are broken and so phrases like "A rebuttal by the author of the 3rd PGE can be found above" are no longer useful. Besides, the decision of the OOG debate was that forum posts shouldn't be used as sources. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:40, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Nedes are supposedly natives of Tamriel, one of the many descendants of the Ehnolofey

The document Before the Ages of Man uses the word Nedic as a synonym for Nordic: the Atmoran settlers who followed Ysgramor to Tamriel. According to this text and some others, Nedes are simply Nords.

Frontier, Conquest, Accommodation, a Social History of Cyrodiil corrects the earlier documents, identifying the Nedic peoples as those who migrated to Tamriel in a slow trickle over hundreds of years, since time immemorial up to the day Ysgramor set sail. The recently-published third edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire endorses this view. Here, Nedes are Nordic by race but not necessarily by custom or religion, as they arrived in small numbers in a continent already populated by many cultures of elves and indigenous men.

This brings us to the hitherto-unexamined memoirs of the demigod Morihaus, The Adabal-a. This ancient account of Cyrodiil under Ayleid rule uncovers for the first time the existence of humans who hail from neither Yokuda nor Atmora: the indigenous tribes of Cyrod. Listed here are the Kothri, the Al-Gemha, Men-of-Ge, Al-Hared and Men-of-Ket. This partial list, though vague, has large implications for the study of human history. It is probable that all these tribes are like the Kothringi: men who always lived as a minority in elven lands. They are no longer known by their own names, but their blood is present in veins of modern Cyrodiil, just as their customs formed the cultural background of the province, Nibenay in particular.[1] The Nedes are presented as yet another of these groups, and no mention is made of their having come from Atmora. Here, it can be surmised that the Nedic people are indigenous, and racially unrelated to those of Atmoran descent. — Unsigned comment by 5.14.124.112 (talk) at 15:47 on 29 September 2013

I'm not sure what alterations to the page you're advocating for here. The article notes at several places that there may have been other wellsprings of human life besides Atmora (it goes without saying, really, considering the Redguards), and it only states where the Nedes are "believed to have" come from, where they are "thought to have" originated, based on the "Out of Atmora" theory that seems to be prevalent amongst scholars in Tamriel. It holds the door open for other groups of early humans, and explicitly notes that this more popularly-understood definition of "Nedes" or "the Nedic peoples" may be improperly conflated to include all early humans in Tamriel. So... what's the point here?Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:18, 29 September 2013 (GMT)

Nede is not a generic term for Proto-Men

What's been hinted at for years in books like The Adabal-a has more or less finally been confirmed in new lore introduced by ESO, that Nede is not a generic term for proto-men or Atmoran migrants but a distinctive and extinct race with a relatively advanced culture based on the study of the constellations, that lived on Tamriel during the Merethic and First Eras. They were wiped out in a combination of Ayleidic Enslavement/Assimilation into other human groups and outright genocide by invading Yokudans. This along with previous hints that the common use of Nede as an umbrella term for early men was rooted in shoddy scholarship and Imperial propaganda calls for a complete re-write of the article. ESO sources include Waterlogged Journal, Defaced Nedic Prayer Book, Nedes of the Deathlands, Mysteries of the Mundus Stones, and Fragments from a Nedic poem, title unknown.--StormySkies (talk) 06:45, 24 July 2014 (GMT)

So any ideas on how to rewrite the article?--StormySkies (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2014 (GMT)

I'm not sure the evidence is as clear as you believe. The books you mention do affirm the existence of a distinct Nedic culture which was not previously elaborated on (as far as I can tell), but there's no word on the Nedes being native to Tamriel or not originally migrating from Atmora. The books' claims that the Nedes developed an advanced society is actually still congruent with the idea of Nedic migration from Atmora given what we know. The simplest explanation is that the "advanced" Nedes are just the descendents of the earlier Nedes who made it to Tamriel, long before Ysgramor's time; Atmoran migration lasted for centuries, which is plenty of time to allow the migrants' culture to diverge from the homeland culture.
So in short, we just need to provide details about the Nedes worshiping the stars and building towers, not necessarily rewrite the article. Croaker (talk) 05:23, 25 July 2014 (GMT)

Whether or not the ancestors of the Nedes ever lived in Atmora is not the central issue. The main issue is the use of Nede as a synonym for early man which after years of evidence, such as the Adabal-a listing the Nedes alongside several other human ethnic groups, it's at least clear that the Nedes are not the human equivalent of the Aldmer but a distinct human racial group that developed and lived alongside other human racial groups on Tamriel. It can at least be put that Ysgramor and the early Nordic migrants were not Nedes as we know that the Nedes already existed as a culture in Tamriel. (Frontier, Conquest)--StormySkies (talk) 18:07, 27 July 2014 (GMT)

Just a tack-on to my previous comment but we also know for a fact that they were not just proto-men because we know not only did they live alongside other racial groups, but that they survived well into the First Era only going extinct when the Yokudans conqured Hammerfell.--StormySkies (talk) 18:22, 27 July 2014 (GMT)

I tweaked it so it says the Nedes were proto-men, not the proto-men. "Proto-men" is a retroactive label which is apparently meant to imply that they were part of the genetic pool out of which the modern races of men arose. There's nothing wrong with describing the Nedes as proto-men; there's no reason to assign it with the connotations that the Nedes themselves were not men or that they were not a distinct culture. I'm not familiar with all the new lore on the Nedes, but I'll try to get back to you. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 01:30, 28 July 2014 (GMT)

Sounds great, I'm not sure if you read through the links I posted but I guess that'd be a good place to start.--StormySkies (talk) 06:27, 28 July 2014 (GMT)

(←) Alright anybody have anything to add before I started editing the article?--StormySkies (talk) 03:14, 29 July 2014 (GMT)

I really want an experienced editor to read through this thread before I waste time changing the article only for my changes to be undone, does anybody have anything to add?--StormySkies (talk) 04:57, 1 August 2014 (GMT)

I would definitely suggest sandboxing a revamp as it will give other editors a clearer picture of what you wish to change. The term "Nede" and "Nedic peoples" is problematic, and a look at much of this talk page is evidence of that. There are two beliefs of what Nedes actually are. A human race who settled in Tamriel from Atmora many many years before Ysgramor -or- a human race native to Tamriel. How you interpret the book Frontier, Conquest and The Adabal-a will color that - nothing is clear cut. The issues has come up before, pre-ESO. This page once held the view of Nedes as a race native to Tamriel, so you may wish to look at the old version also. Add the several conflicting "unreliable narrator" sources (both in-game and out-of-game) and you don't know where to start. Good luck! --Jimeee (talk) 14:40, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

improving the article

There's a wealth of information about the Nedes that's revealed in Craglorn. I've icorporated most of it into the article but there's still a few things that I don't know how to articulate. Important ones that stand out are the use of Nirncrux in Nedic society, Zal'ik sacrificing his people's souls to Shada to avoid Yokudan slaughter, the massacre of the Council of Nedic Kings by Virmaril, and Skyreach's role as capital of the Nedes in their twilight days. Help?--StormySkies (talk) 21:05, 1 March 2015 (GMT)

The Nedes used nirncrux as part of their "cult of the stars", as the material can harness the near-divine power of the stars. They used nirncrux across Tamriel to erect the Mundus Stones. Craglorn is the only place where the stone can be quarried, and the Nedic kingdoms there used it to create beings known as "Celestials". They took the form of animals and Daedra, and were sealed away in Skyreach Pinnacle. The Celestials that take on the aspects of the constellations are theorised to be Nedic creations that ascended, although they remain mortal and can therefore be killed on Tamriel (thus the risk posed by the Serpent's corruption, and the reason for the Thief's plan to merely stop him rather than kill him). I haven't completed the Upper Craglorn main questline yet, but seeing as Cassipia wants to become a Celestial Viper herself through the use of Nirncrux, I think the theory implies that the constellations themselves are mortal inventions. I'd hold off on integrating the majority of this information into the article until we have a clearer picture of the Craglorn story.

I'm not sure if the information on Shada's Tear deserves incorporation into the race's article, since it was only a single Nedic city. A few sentences on Skyreach's impressive size and its fall from within would be good as a conclusion in the Deathlands section maybe. I've been intending to write an article on Skyreach for a while now, which I feel would be a better place to go into detail on the historic events of the place. —Legoless (talk) 21:32, 1 March 2015 (GMT)

I think I'll hold off for a little bit, before including the new information. Thanks for the suggestions. (Also I'm going to have to agree with you about Shada's Tear. The only reason I wanted to go into more detail was to show how desperate the Nedes were. Maybe Shada's Tear could have it's own article?) — Unsigned comment by StormySkies (talk • contribs) at 21:59 on 1 March 2015 (GMT)

Yeah, there's definitely enough info to warrant a separate article for Shada's. Think I might even have some pictures for it that I'm yet to upload... —Legoless (talk) 23:03, 1 March 2015 (GMT)

OOG sources

Been a while since I brough this up, I'm still hoping to get to it. Anyway what's the wiki policy on OOG sources? It's been confirmed time and time again by the devs that the Nedes have no ties to Atmora, and that the idea of that comes from Imperial propaganda to build a kinship with the Nords. Is it possible to add that to the article? Or is that prohibited since the Out-of-Atmora theory is what mostly appears in the games?--StormySkies (talk) 03:44, 21 March 2015 (GMT)

Here. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 03:54, 21 March 2015 (GMT)

It can be included, but it shouldn't take precedent over the "out of Atmora" theory (which actually has substantial backing at this point). —Legoless (talk) 17:15, 21 March 2015 (GMT)

The never left Tamriel view has been repeatedly stated by Kirkbride and Kuhlmann but neither of them work at Bethesda anymore so that's why I'm hesitant about including it. Although the other issue is that i'm not even sure the devs have decided where the Nedes come from, and things seem to change by the writer. In ESO alone you have Nedes that act almost Nord-like with names like Ornskar, and Haakon, and in the same breath you have an almost alien culture of star-worshiping scholars with names like Saladin and Zal'ik. Then there are outliers that don't fit with either view like Lamae and co. who speak with Eastern-European accents and have names like Vraseth, and Selenu. It's all very confusing.--StormySkies (talk) 23:55, 21 March 2015 (GMT)

Pretty much anything MK says at this point is unusable. He is way past his expiration date. He hasn't worked at Bethesda is pre-Morrowind launch (i.e like 15 years) and so nothing he has to say is relevant. If Bethesda wishes his material be included in the canon, they can contract him to write a book or something. But beyond that, he shouldn't be used for pretty much anything. Jeancey (talk) 01:15, 22 March 2015 (GMT)

My 2 cents: Kurt Kuhlmann is currently the Lead Designer and the Loremaster at Bethesda. You can find him in the credits of Skyrim, and Lawrence Schick (Loremaster at ZOS) says he is working with him about the lore. --Lady freyja (talk) 10:08, 22 March 2015 (GMT)

Anyone still working at Bethesda or Zenimax is fine. Current developers pose no problems in terms of what is canon since things that they say are vetted and approved before they are allowed to talk about them (as I know from several of my discussions with Bethesda and ZOS employees). MK is the only former developer who still releases large amounts of related material (none of which should be used on the wiki). Jeancey (talk) 15:01, 22 March 2015 (GMT)

Well, since we've never even had a discussion about MK's more recent works on the UESP before, let me say this: the lore section focuses on the official content, first and foremost, and it's my understanding that even MK would admit (in a roundabout sort of way) that his latest works are his perspective on TES and its lore. One man's vision, which itself advocates that everyone should go out and make their own visions.

It's not like C0DA, the Loveletter, Landfall, etc., are banned from any sort of mention on the UESP. It's just that coverage of it in the lorespace would probably be inappropriate. Frankly, I think our General namespace is highly undervalued in this regard. It could serve to provide coverage for any number of TES-related community projects, Kirkbride's included, if anyone would take the time to do so.

Ultimately, none of this matters unless we specify exactly what remarks we're talking about here, the context in which they were made, the changes proposed to the page, and what gaps in the page they are intended to address. That's how the guidelines frame these matters. We know that Out of Atmora is a contested theory, and the page makes that clear up front. What gap in the in-game coverage would these remarks serve to fill? Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 20:22, 22 March 2015 (GMT)

they were not from Atmora

The nedes were never from Atmora because Ysgramor was a Atmoran who was also not a nede and the Atmorans,Nords bred with the Nedes to create Imperials so that would be false and nedes Im pretty sure are from the south and not the north but if im wrong let me know — Unsigned comment by 66.168.9.161 (talk) at 04:15 on 22 June 2017 (UTC)

As it says in the first line on the page, the Nedes are a "race of unknown extraction". We don't know. —Legoless (talk) 14:45, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Windswept Sepulchers picture

The picture is taken from the Howling Sepulchers delve in Upper Craglorn. The barrow featured in the picture is clearly Nordic - the other features of this part of the delve include a Dragon Priest and Draugr.

The Nedic stuff to which the loadscreen description refer exists on the lower level (accessible by a door to the left of the main entrance), along the valley floor, where instead of Draugr and Nordic architecture there are skeletons in Nedic armour and a Nedic sacred chamber.

I'm inclined to remove the picture, but I like to check other's thoughts before I go ahead. — Unsigned comment by 119.18.3.6 (talk) at 12:56 on 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we have any sources identifying the Sepulchers as anything but Nedic, but I'd be fine with the removal given the uncertainty. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:42, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

It is odd they used Nordic assets, but the loading screen and Titus' dialogue say the sepulchers and its inhabitants are all Nedic. Instead of removing the picture it would probably be better to get another one of the lower Nedic levels. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:27, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that we should get a pic of the lower levels. Neither the loading screen nor Valerius say that the inhabitants are all nedic. — Unsigned comment by 119.18.3.6 (talk) at 08:27 on 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Ditching the "Out-of-Atmora" theory as the primary theory of origin

The "Out-of-Atmora" theory has finally been thoroughly contradicted by some additions in ESO:Greymoor and ESO:Markarth, those being Kothringi culture in Black Marsh being dated to "early Merethic era or even perhaps before." (see: Silver Wish Medaillon, Gabrielle Benele's Entry), and Reachfolk being established to be native to the Karth region. (See: Lost Valley Redoubt Loading Screen, Nchuand-Zel Loading Screen.) That is more than enough direct evidence to overturn claims by various scholars, some tainted by propaganda. Additionally we have some decade old comment by Kurt Kuhlmann already ditching the "Out of Atmora" theory. (See: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/kurt-kuhlmann-posts). Thus I propose that the "Native to Tamriel" Theory should be the primary one presented on the Nede page, with the "Out of Atmora" theory as an alternative/secondary. --TheynT (talk) 12:21, 15 January 2021 (GMT)

Its still ambiguous. The Lost Valley Redoubt Loading Screen (Long before Elves or Nords conquered the region of Karth, tribes of humans inhabited the caves...) refers to the Nordic conquest of High Rock post Ysgramor. But we know humans have been migrating to Tamriel before him, and these humans of the Karth can easily be one of the groups that came centuries before him - indeed that's backed up by Khosey's "Tamrilean Tractates" who mentions the discovery of early Bretons/Reachmen speaking broken Nordic. Going back even further we know the Dawn Era wars displaced humans and elves making it possible for both theories to co-exist. All mortal life began on Tamriel on the mega continent in the Dawn as you have described, then humans were displaced to Atmora during the War of the Ehlnofey when the mega continent broke up, then throughout the Dawn and Merethic Humans/wandering Ehlnofey began to migrate back to Tamriel - including all the pre-Ysgramor humans, like the Reachmen, etc. Finally Ysgramor was the final migration.--Jimeee (talk) 14:09, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm aware that the origin of the Reachfolk is still somewhat open, but it also isn't the main driver behind the nativity theory. The Kothringi are, who apparenlty existed in Black Marsh since the Dawn Era or at least the Early Merethic. Another thing to consider with the Reachfolk is though, that in those times the Reachfolk were literal cavemen. And their origin myth has them witnessing Lorkhs sundering after which they fled to the mountains. Aka. they witnessed Convention, then fled to the Druadach Mountains and Karth Valley.

Of course, both theories might still perfectly coexist, but newer findings, _actual_ findings, instead of pure literature suggest the nativity theory is indeed true. (Referring to kothringi artifacts). --TheynT (talk) 16:11, 15 January 2021 (GMT)

I think the native Nede theory has enough proof at this stage to be refocused as the primary origin, or at the very least should be treated as a theory with equal weight. Out-of-Atmora should absolutely remain on the page though. It seems to me to be pretty clear that only some humans came from Atmora (or were "displaced to Atmora during the Dawn", if you believe the Nords). —⁠Legoless (talk) 18:14, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

oppose. There is still no ingame source whatsoever that directly contradicts out of atmora. There’s some 100 percent valid interpretations of this info saying we have possible contradictions. But that still can’t really contest about a half dozen solid sources that say all men came from atmora in various exodus’s I’d be actually thrilled to see a note on the page that alludes to the potential conflicts. But there’s still not one source that is concrete ingame, so imo the main language certainly can’t be changed at this stage.Dcking20 (talk) 18:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Support, so long as the out-of-atmora theory remains on the page and is presented as a possibility. The continued 'support' of the Out of Atmora theory is complicated deeply by the fact that our two 'recent' sources are either a) terrible, culturally biased scholars to begin with (Lady Laurent) or b) have a vested interest in perpetuating the Out of Atmora theory as propaganda (Abnur Tharn, who makes it abundantly clear that the only relevance ancient history truly has to him is its use as a way to prop up the empire). Omn (talk) 18:39, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with making the native theory the primary and the Atmora theory the secondary. If even one source suggests a Dawn Era presence of Nedes on Tamriel, then even for the Wandering Ehlnofey, that makes them native to Tamriel, as there's nothing to suggest they went any further. --Enodoc (talk) 18:59, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

+1 for focusing on the native theory but leaving the Atmora theory on the page. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 19:24, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I support both theories being present.Zebendal (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I think both should be listed, with the primary one being either the native one or the out of Atmora theory, as long as both are listed. But if a dev has stated the Out of Atmora is really false and we are having evidence of it being false and debunked in Eso with new lore being added that debunks it then for sure the Native one should be the primary and I do support it being the primary theory in that case. Eso has for sure introduced lore, that strongly suggests many of the Races are native to Tamriel or have been on Tamriel since the Dawn Era. Orcs being in Wrogthar since the Dawn Era being one example of lore introduced, the Reachman being portrayed as being natives as another. So we have strong evidence that is suggesting these races being native to Tamriel instead of coming from outside it. Even Mk himself has stated Aldmeris is fragments of the Dawn Era and never really existed. Given what we know, I do think we have to consider as a real possibility many of the races are native to Tamriel and it shouldn't be overlooked that most if not all of them could be native to Tamriel in some shape or form. (TheVampKnight (talk) 11:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC))

There is nothing wrong with listing both theories (and the page already does that), but listing one over the other is just wrong given the wealth of evidence we have. The lore itself tell us over and over that there are contradictions on both sides and its a giant unknown among the most well read scholars on the subject - its not for us to choose a theory that's most likely.

I've already covered Reachmen, and honestly the recent Kothringi antiquities lore is not "strong evidence" in any way, shape or form. Silver medialion "makes no sense" according to Gabrielle Benele and the Nest of Shadows is pure scholarly speculation from Ugron gro-Thumog ("Cultural exchange with the Kothringi, maybe?"). Just more uncertainly.

The real nail in the coffin is Lady Laurent's words on the matter, considered as close to the authority on Nedes if there ever was one: "It is indisputable, to my mind, that all the human tribes of Northern Tamriel (pre-Ra Gada, of course) had their origins in mythic Atmora, but that they emigrated here from different parts of it, and at different times, over a period of many lifetimes.". Note that she mentions the northern tribes - i.e. not the Kothringi, so we can still say their origin is disputed. Combine Laurent's line with the Brothers of Destruction quest where the Chimer themselves (a first-hand account) refer to the invading Nords as "Nedes", there is no way that the native to Tamriel theory can be considered the "primary" theory. Both should be listed and given somewhat equal weight, and the exiting paragraph reworded to properly explaining the mountains of contradictions and inconsistencies.--Jimeee (talk) 17:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

couldn’t agree with jimeee more in this instance. If we are going to put the native theory on a more even footing then that’s one thing. Us deciding out of atmora is going to be treated with lesser weight of the two because clearly it’s the wrong one is not the way to go, at the end of the day out of atmora still has a ton of sources in its favor. Dcking20 (talk) 00:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Frontier, Conquest doesn't say that

Currently the page says

>A strong scholarly support for the nativity theory is Gwylim Press’ own “Frontier, Conquest, and Accomodation,”[UOL 2][UOL 3] which acknowledges Atmoran settlers in Tamriel before Ysgramor, but establishes the Nede as aboriginal to Tamriel. Those Nede were a minority in elven lands and as such had to accommodate themselves with them.[9]

"Frontier, Conquest" actually says the opposite, that the Nords were just the latest wave of Nedes from Atmora. The link here isn't to "Frontier, Conquest" but Michael Kirkbride's posts in which he misremembered the actual text of "Frontier, Conquest".

See Frontier Conquest: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frontier,_Conquest

--68.150.197.231 06:52, 4 February 2021 (UTC)Niente de Nada

The UOL links are merely supporting that "Frontier, Conquest, and Accomodation" support the Nativity Theory". Based on that, I reevaluated the book itself and added the result past the comma. The Reference there leads to [9] http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frontier,_Conquest. If one looks at Frontier, Conquest paragraph by paragraph you get the following result:

1st paragraph - Nede were on tamriel far longer than nords. though nords can just be counted to the various nedic tribes

2nd paragraph - before ysgramor, other atmorans came to tamriel

3rd paragraph - nede were a minority in elven lands

4th paragraph - nord destroyed the balance of nede and elves up when they started their empire

Though Frontier's statement about the earliest traces of humans around ME1000-800 is outdated by now, as ESO gave us some traces of humans in the earliest Merethic/even Dawn Era.

--TheynT (talk) 09:01, 04 February 2021 (GMT)

How Theyn explained it is how I understand it.Zebendal (talk) 10:17, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Horwalli, Yespest, Orma

The source (Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Argonia) being cited for Horwalli doesn't say the Horwalli were wiped out by the Knahaten Flu. The Kothringi are the only race it mentions was destroyed by the Flu. Here is the passage in full:

Whether the terrible Knahaten Flu arose from natural causes, or was created by an Argonian shaman in retaliation for his people's oppression, is still a matter of debate. But its result was clear. The plague began in Stormhold in 2E 560, and quickly spread to every corner of Black Marsh, killing all those not of reptilian stock. For over forty years, it held the Province in its grip, decimating entire cultures (notably, the Kothringi) and driving outsiders from the land.

It says the Flu "quickly spread to every corner of Black Marsh, killing all those not of reptilian stock". It does not say every single non-Argonian in Black Marsh at the time was killed by the Flu. The passage says it "decimated entire cultures, notably, the Kothringi". The Kothringi are the only people it mentions being especially devastated by the flu. It does not say the Yespest were destroyed utterly. It does not say the Horwalli were destroyed utterly. It does not say the Orma went extinct.

The notion that all of Black Marsh's humans died to the Flu is speculation.

Furthermore, the idea that the Yespest created the xanmeers (which are the "stone monuments" being referred to in the passage cited from the Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel) is complete hogwash. The passage being cited is an excerpt from a racist who couldn't possibly conceive of the ancient Argonians creating stonework. Here is the passage, in full, where the Yespest are referred to as the "Yerpest":

After studying texts and illustrations and the encounters in Blackrose, Second Company lorekeeper Coventina Helvetia went on to explore the intricacies of Argonian architecture. She postulates that the feebleminded, shackle-wearing vassals currently infecting this land with the flu could not possibly have invented and sculpted the squat but highly ornamented stone monuments. It strains credulity to agree that such edifices were works of Argonians at all. Current speculation is that an indigenous human tribe known to be active in this region -- such as the Kothringi or Yerpest -- was responsible. This tribe, in turn, took inspiration from the architecture of Barsaebic Ayleids. Then, via disease or strife, the scaly men of Black Marsh salvaged these earlier settlements and claimed ownership. Yes, here, perhaps, is the truth of the matter.

Every other source we have on the xanmeers' construction contradicts the idea that one of the human tribes built the stone monuments of Black Marsh, which are rife with lizard and tree imagery. We cannot sit here and posit, with a straight face, that "yes, indeed, the Yerpest did build these stone monoliths, because of course, no source is ever biased". The author/the associate they cite without scrutiny flat out calls the Argonians "feebleminded, shackle-wearing squatters that are infecting the land with the flu". That particular scrap of paper in Flaccus's guide is from a biased source that doesn't know Jack about Argonian culture, and obviously didn't pay enough attention to Barsaebic architecture. We should not be taking it seriously. I've removed the inaccuracies. -MolagBallet (talk) 02:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi!!!!! gonna speak as the person who wrote most of the aforementioned :3 personally i don't think the knahaten killed them all at all and i'm VERY opposed to saying they were, idk who said that but it is speculation, they totally could've died from other things. Furthermore I think it is important to keep one mention of men living in black marsh under the Nede page cuz by definition Nede is just "human endemic to Tamriel" which they all fit (plus the Kothri are mentioned as being around before the slave rebellion). However, I am VERY opposed to calling Horwalli just Nedes, only reason I did is cuz the name redirected here and I had nowhere else to put them! they should get their own page

As for the Yespest and the stone monuments, honestly, I didn't put together that he was referring xanmeers! I thought it was completely different stone monuments, like skyreach towers in Craglorn or something. since we never seen Blackrose I didn't bother to look into it further cuz idk what the stone monuments could be. as for the note on the page lets PLEASE move it to just the Lore:Xanmeer page, its a total eyesore on this one and hardly related to the Nedes at all, just a derailment! thank you!!!!!! 🤗🤗 The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Alrighty then, I'll create a page for the Horwalli and move the note! -MolagBallet (talk) 20:28, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Kestic = Men of Kreath = Falkreat

It’s stated here on this page and others on the wiki that the Nedic King Kestic ruled over the “Men of Kreath” in the region of Falkreath, I’m pretty sure that’s not mentioned anywhere. He’s said to be the “Forest King” and rule over a forested realm, forested doesn’t automatically equal Falkreath. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Kestic linked to the Men of Kreath either. This and at the time of the Fall of Skyreach, Skyrim was already an ancient country that included the pine forests around Falkreath Hold, what did Kestic possibly rule over in Skyrim?--StormySkies (talk) 09:48, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Kothri and Druids

Recently the Nedes of the wiki have seen a huge revamp, which is awesome. However, in accordance with the new Subraces row there are a few entries here that don't appear. I considered making this talk on the template, but I believe the template is correct. Not confident enough in that to just, edit the page, though. This talk feature is great for that. Do let me know if I'm overusing it!

The two entries under scrutiny are the Kothri and Druids of Galen. The Rim of the Sky told me under the Lore:Races talk page that the Druids fell under the same distinction as Atmorans and Yokudans, and I agree with that. Neither Atmorans or Yokudans are listed in the Races list. The Druids also tend to doubly refer to a faction... a tad confusing, but ultimately I think that they don't belong here. The Manmeri thing probably shouldn't either, since they both refer to precursor Bretons that function just as Yokudans and Atmorans do.

As for the Kothri, their drawn conclusion as the Kothringi's Nedic ancestors seems flimsy to me. The name Kothri doesn't even appear on the Kothringi's lore page, and to me the connection isn't there. I agree with the Subraces' placement of the Kothringi under the Nedic Tribes umbrella, as the Orma are similarly distinct races of men that are still included. Though, I think Reachmen are included under the Nedic umbrella too... okay, imma stop here before I get deep into the 'What is a race?' sauce and just restate for clarity; I don't think the Kothri or Druids of Galen should be here. Sorry for the long post! :) — Unsigned comment by Mindtrait0r (talk • contribs) at 23:39 on 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Druids of Galen and Kothri(ngi) are various kinds of Nedes. That is why they are listed on Nede page. The Druids are not placed in the Navbox however. The policy to not put ancestors of other races in navbox exists to prevent redundancy but on the lore page for Nedes, the opposite is expected. Classification of nedic folk (and what Nede tends to entail) is generally very murky but Druids of Galen are more than a faction - it's just UESP standards arent suited for things that escape neat box like them - since they are Nedic ancestors of Bretons, but later Druids of galen were already Breton themselves - it's term used to refer to Breton ancestors but also later to a specific faction of Bretons. The policy that prevents Yokudans from being in navboxes does not apply to lore pages about Nedes as it's a policy about navboxes rather than lorepages.

As for the Kothri(ngi), even if the link between Kothri and Kotrhingi was not sufficient (the UOL texts seem to treat them as the same though) the in game sources (Online:Lodyna_Arethi) are very clear that Kothringi are supposed to be under Nedic umbrella irregardless. Additionally the Lore:Augustine Viliane Answers Your Questions talks about Kothringi worship of Dibella, which initially came from Kothri worship of Dibella from General:The Water-getting Girl and the Inverse Tiger. It seems that official sources are fine with treating them as the one implicitly, even if not calling them that way by name. Tyrvarion (talk) 00:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The Druids of Galen were originally Nedes so they should be labeled as Nedes or in the same vein as a Tribe of Nedes. They were just born as Bretons at a later point in time. Manmer is used in the modern context for Bretons in the Draoife Storystone, but it is a more archaic word in terms of overall usage. I don't see anything wrong with listing the Druids of Galen here, it just details their transition into Bretons. Zebendal (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

We should probably list the Druids of Galen page for the Nedic page under the term "proto-Breton", to help differentiate them from their Breton descendants that took later also took on the moniker.Zebendal (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)