Lore talk:Last Dragonborn

Ambush Discrepancy

Ralof not once claims the LDB was captured in the same ambush as Ulfric and co. Darkwater Crossing is in Eastmarch, Ralof says we were caught trying to cross the border. What border? There is no border at Darkwater Crossing.

To quote the Imperial captain, who states the LDB is a renegade from Cyrodiil if we're an Imperial:

"the renegade from Cyrodiil"

To quote Hadvar, who openly states the LDB returned or came to Skyrim, who explains our ignorance of current events in Skyrim to people in Cyrodiil having other things to worry about, and who literally says we were caught trying to cross the border into Skyrim:

"You picked a bad time to come home to Skyrim"

"Not many Wood Elves would choose to come alone to Skyrim."

"Oh, right, you were caught trying to cross the border into Skyrim, weren't you?"

"You haven't heard of the civil war in Skyrim? I guess down in Cyrodiil people have other things to worry about."

To quote Ralof, who states we were caught trying to cross the border (twice), who explains our ignorance of current events in Skyrim to people in Cyrodiil having other things to worry about:

"You were trying to cross the border, right?"

"Oh, right, they said you were captured crossing the border."

"Surely even down in Cyrodiil people have heard news of the war in Skyrim?"

To quote Galmar, who openly refers to us as a foreigner:

"Why's a foreigner want to fight for Skyrim?"

To quote the LDB themselves, who openly declares Cyrodiil as their home, and who declares ignorance as to how Ralof and co ended up as Imperial prisoners (making it clear the LDB was not present during said ambush):

"You're from Cyrodiil? What's it like back home?"

"How did you end up as Imperial prisoners?"

The narrative that the LDB was captured at Darkwater Crossing requires ignoring literally all the evidence to the contrary - including evidence provided by the very person who is insisted on this wiki claims the LDB was captured at Darkwater Crossing. It requires a severe usage of fallacies to maintain this belief in the presence of vastly more sources to the contrary. 94.210.31.12 13:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

And just ignoring these statements doesn't make the inaccuracy on this page any less accurate.

94.210.31.12 13:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. The dialogue does imply that the LDB was caught in a separate encounter than Ralof and Ulfric. Mindtrait0r (talk) 16:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

They kinda left out the second part of the quote that says "You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us, and that thief over there." Seems pretty explict to me. Regardless of what border was being crossed. The narrative is the Dragonborn was caught in the same kerfuffle as Lokir.Tarponpet (talk) 16:22, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

That would only add-up if Ulfric and co were captured near a border. Darkwater Crossing isn't anywhere near a border. How would Ralof conclude we walked into that Imperial ambush while trying to cross the border into Skyrim, if we're not even crossing a border into Skyrim? Why does Ralof explain our ignorance of local events on people in Cyrodiil having other things to worry about? Why does Hadvar outright state that the LDB was caught trying to cross the border into Skyrim?

The Darkwater Crossing narrative does not add up.

94.210.31.12 17:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Darkwater Crossing is on the border of Winterhold Hold. Our character is from Cyrodiil, but the border was never said to provincial. Also regardless, our character is going to have blank slate degrees of knowledge no matter where they were, thats how these games work.Tarponpet (talk) 18:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

"never said to be provincial", did you read the quotes I provided? "Renegade from Cyrodiil" "return to Skyrim" "come alone to Skyrim" "cross the border into Skyrim", plenty of reference to a provincial border there. And I repeat, both Ralof and Hadvar rationalize our ignorance of current events in Skyrim because "people in Cyrodiil have other things to worry about" - that line does not make sense unless if the PC has a connection to Cyrodiil (aka, crossing the border from Cyrodiil into Skyrim).

Especially when taking into account the PC refers to Cyrodiil as "home".

I don't actually see any kind of counterargument to the abundance of evidence showing the LDB was not captured at Darkwater Crossing, I only see a dismissal of all these quotes because they don't fit the old narrative which is only accepted because it has already been out there for so long.

94.210.31.12 18:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

(←) I think the most natural reading and understanding of is they were captured at the same event. A second ambush of someone dressed in rags at the literal border doesn't make much sense, especially for such an important operation. Especially since all the details about the single ambush we learn about take place at the same location, there isn't mentions of them going off course to capture more people (detouring far off course at that, to capture people on route that could have been left to local law enforcement instead of continuing with the planned execution). There are also internal borders that could explain it, but honestly just because the Dragonborn was in Darkwater Crossing doesn't mean they weren't still crossing the border. They had yet to stop/settle down in Skyrim, and may have not actually run into any towns or people yet depending on their exact route after leaving from Cyrodiil, so they were still attempting to cross into Skyrim. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 19:04, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I think Alpha Kenny Buddy's recent edit was a good compromise. Mentions all the facts but keeps it vague enough.Tarponpet (talk) 19:22, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it's an inconsistency with Ralof's intro lines and before the storm quest lines as when you read into it you have to work out how they know the player was captured crossing into Skyrim from Cyrodiil near Darkwater Crossing which is in Eastmarch with no border with Cyrodiil. Ralof says the ambush was near Darkwater Crossing and he overheard the player was captured trying to cross the border from a Legionnaire and then talks of Cyrodiil as a location while Hadvar also says the player was captured crossing the border into Skyrim. As far as a timeline of events goes the below is what I can tell from what is scattered about in the game.

Ambush near Darkwater Crossing (Ralof)

Tullius tries going to Cyrodiil with Ulfric (Hadvar)

Player crosses Cyrodiil-Skyrim border (Hadvar and Ralof talk of this at least confirming the player is crossing from Cyrodiil)

Avalanche (Fort Neugrad Civil War notes (talks of Pale Passs being closed due to Avalanches)

Legion picks up Player at Pale Pass and turns around to Helgen

[Skyrim Intro]

—Lich King Arthas Menethil (talk 20:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

^That is the most logical course of action. The narrative that the LDB was still crossing the border into Skyrim while being captured in a Hold which doesn't even have a border with Cyrodiil (Eastmarch) does not make sense.

94.210.31.12 19:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

"they said you were captured crossing the border" - Ralof

"I thought they were taking us south to Cyrodiil. Parade us in front of the Emperor. But then we stopped in Helgen, and you know the rest." - Ralof

I agree that it looks like we were picked up along the way. "We" most likely means just the Stormcloaks, not all the prisoners, and the LDB was picked up on the way south. Ralof saying "that" ambush might just refer to ours, and the "same as us" part is referring to them also walking into ambushes. It wouldn't necessarily have to be the same ambush, just the same method of capture that Ralof is relating to. That said, I don't think the new paragraph from AKB needs to be changed, since it no longer claims we were in the Stormcloak ambush and just places us in the general Imperial operation ("mission" might be a better word, but still). BananaKing5 (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2024 (UTC)