Lore talk:House Dagoth

cleanup

• remove redundancies, some of the text here can be moved to existing main articles, i.e. Lore:Battle of Red Mountain and Lore:War of the First Council.
• check facts; correct name of Lore:Dagoth Ur, Lord Voryn Dagoth
• Correct references
• create missing articles on Heart of Lorkhan; the brass god Akulakhan; Kagrenac's Tools, etc

I am sure there's more that can be done to lift a nice article. Perhaps a few images would add to it as well. --Benould^•T•C 19:11, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

I've finished with my passthrough for this page. I did my best to reference everything and take out the more speculative stuff. Articles exist for the Heart, Tools, and Akulakhan. Is there anything else that should be done here before I remove the template? --MarginWalker (talk) 00:04, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

The in-game banner

If anyone has the graphic of the actual in-game banner [1] from Morrowind I'd really appreciate it if you could upload for use in the article. I think I even went digging through the game's files once looking for it but never found it, and I've never seen it online except in screenshots. Thanks. --MarginWalker (talk) 17:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure why its so underused, but we have two; one used on the Great Houses page and one unused. As long as the banner is used in the game it can be used here, otherwise it cannot. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, that second one is what I was looking for. It is actually is used in the game in many places, I'm not sure why it's labeled "unused" here. --MarginWalker (talk) 20:02, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Mention of the ESO collectible

I put that there to illustrate the house's connection with music, as the rest of that paragraph is focused on that. Where would you propose it go? --MarginWalker (talk) 17:31, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Seems good to me. Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 18:11, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

The lore articles are supposed to be written from an in universe perspective, at least from my understanding. So talking about gameplay or game collectibles do not belong here. Another thing the concept art should either not be there (my personal opinion) or cited as oog. Example. 'Some of the more advanced forms of Ash Creature have long, perforated, trunk-like snouts, which they have been known to use as an instrument. [Cite oog art here]'. Something like that but i'm not a very good editor. Also it is irrelevant to say that an in-universe book says something. It would probably be better to say something like, In literature the house is depicted as X [cite poison song], does that get the idea across at least? Again this is just my understanding of it so don't quote on me on it, or that what I said here is exactly as its supposed to be, someone with more skill in editing would be better at explaining. Enderkingdev (talk) 04:03, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Official concept art isn't OOG, it's how these characters were designed and is no less relevant than any other source. That image is part of TES3's dev material. As far as talking about collectibles, I can see how it's kind of a grey area but you have to remember that the lore does not exist independently of the games. The content of the games is where all of this ultimately comes from, so when trying to figure out what the characteristics of something is lore-wise you're going to have to look at things like quests, items, etc. lore books only go so far. They're supplementary material, basically. But one vanity item may or may not warrant mention here, idk. I don't see why your suggestion re the Poison Song is an improvement, exactly. What do you mean by "literature?" Any lore book can be called literature. In that case I pointed out that it's fictional within the universe, and so shouldn't be taken as seriously as other sources. --MarginWalker (talk) 18:39, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

It's not so much the actual content, but how it's presented. For example, instead of "which concept art[1] depicts them playing like musical instruments", use something like "which they may use as a musical instrument.{{ref}}". And instead of "The in-universe work of fiction Poison Song", consider "The epic novel Poison Song". The point here being, when writing from an in-universe perspective (which lorespace is), we can't use out-of-universe terms like "concept art" and "in-universe". The removed sentence about the ESO collectible is the same; if the chime is referenced, it must be done in a way that is presented encyclopedically and in-universe, with no mentions of "the player". --Enodoc (talk) 19:16, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Made changes to fit the in-universe perspective. --MarginWalker (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

(←) I'm aware that the concept art is part of the development process. That's the problem though. The development process is a time of heavy change. How can you be sure that the concept of Ash creatures using their trunks as instruments wasn't scrapped by Bethesda and isn't part of the lore? The page Lore: Clockwork City contains this sentence"Other sources from various eras theorized that it could be located somewhere in the southern swamps of Morrowind[1][OOG 1]" That OOG source is the Concept map of Morrowind. As a concept map it wasn't a final product so it is OOG despite it being official. Part of an OOG source is that it might not reflect established lore, which I defiantly think concept art from the development stage falls under. Enderkingdev (talk) 21:07, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

If said content had been cut from the game then it would be OOG, but these designs reflect the characters that are there. Sometimes the differences between concept and execution are due only to technical limitations. The undead Akaviri in the Lifting the Vale quest in Oblivion were given human models only because the devs lacked the time and resources to model Tsaesci. Concept work can sometimes reflect the lore better than the games themselves do. --MarginWalker (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

re: Lifting the Vale models: that's not true, or at least cannot assert that as a fact, given some ESO information and some other stuff, I don't think it's even safe to assume that any of the Akaviri races are even bestial, but that's another subject entirely.

I'm with Enderkingdev on this one, there is no way to convey information taken from concept art as information taken within the universe, simply because it's not inside the universe. It's an outsiders preliminary view of an idea created during development of the game, and we simply cannot say whether it did not make it into the game because of technical limitations or because the idea - the concept - was discarded. There are plenty of other sources inside the games that attest to the connection of the Sixth House with music and musical instruments, like the bells in caves both in Morrowind and ESO (in the Sixth House public dungeon). Bryn (talk) 00:09, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

This came from a developer interview from years ago which I can't find now; the site that hosted it may not exist anymore. But yes, characters like Mishaxhi are implemented as generic Imperials because there wasn't time to portray them properly. It's fine to present things in an in-universe way, but in order to actually gather all the facts you do need to "look behind the curtain" sometimes. How else would you explain a discrepancy like that? --MarginWalker (talk) 03:27, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Poison Song and "hearing" the Sixth House

The Poison Song series describes the journey of a young Dunmer man who discovers that he's a descendant of a noble of House Dagoth. He discovers this by way of a House signet ring that's given to him by his nanny(?), who is also of the Sixth House. The ring makes him hear strange music and whispers and whatnot. In ESO there's a quest in the Morrowind chapter when you enter the Forgotten Wastes, where an injured Dunmer warrior tasks you with rescuing his sister from some cultists in a nearby tomb. You can find the sister's journal where she describes hearing whispers while working on what we can recognize as an Ash Statue. Now, the Ash Statues in TES3:Morrowind have this kind of effect on certain npcs, making them go crazy, hostile, etc. - the Sleepers. I believe that while the Poison Song series is fictional in-universe, the whole "music hearing" bit is probably inspired directly by the effects of Ash Statues.--87.255.89.160 07:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The Tribe Unmourned

Hi! I see that you guys put the "Tribe unmourned" as a synonym of House Dagoth, yet in-game Dagoth Ur talk about them as separate things. Is this how you honor, editors, the Sixth House, AND the Tribe Unmourned? I think that there is some confusion, even in-game where characters like Peakstar talk about the House Dagoth when asked about the Tribe, yet others like the author Gilvas Barelo seem to think it may refer to the Dwemer or Dagoth, or even both:

...through the doors of the unmourned house

where scoffers scoff and schemers scheme

Notes:

Lines 1-3: Ambiguous. May refer to the impiety of the god-mocking House Dwemer, or the treacherous diplomacy of the subtle House Dagoth, or both.

Nibani Maesa said this aswell: "I am not sure. 'The tribe unmourned' may mean the Sixth House, House Dagoth, which was exterminated after the Battle of Red Mountain. But it may also mean the Dwemer, or the Dwarves, as Westerners call them."

I personally think it may be both? The Dwemer are the tribe unmourned, nobody cried for their disappearance and the "...doors of the unmourned house", the doors and halls refer to the different Dwemer ruins of Red Mountain. But this are also ruins occupied by House Dagoth, which they were also never mourned, as they were the enemies of the (False) Tribunal.

I think this may be another "Red Moment" moment. --45.182.127.185 17:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Sixth House's colours

The article mentions that the House has a penchant for purple, but outside of the Ascended Sleepers wearing purple robes (that also have red details) there's nothing to support this. None of the Dagoth items you find in the games have purple on them. Banners are brown or orange\ red, artifacts are black and red, table in ESO is teal and brown. Robes associated with the House come in different colours: Ascended Sleepers wear red and purple; Cultists (ESO) wear black and red; and Ash Ghouls wear white/ grey/ tan robes. Ash Vampires wear red and gold loincloths.--87.255.89.160 22:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)