Lore talk:Goblin

Minor Concerns

I did the article but I still have a few minor concerns, that probably should be addressed:

• I wasn't sure if the Goblin slavery by the high elves referenced Goblins or Goblin-Ken, but Dominus confirmed that it was indeed the case so I will add it tomorrow.
• Rieklings are called Ice Goblins by imperials in Bloodmoon. In ESO goblins are called Rieklings by the nords. (Dominus also confirmed this) I don't know how to deal with this. :S
• Durzogs are tamed for hunting and rats are tamed for meat by goblins. Dominus didn't think we should add this but the Lore:Riekling mentions that Bristlebacks are tamed.
• Should we make a list of tribes?

These are the last few concerns I have.--Ashendant (talk) 01:58, 28 July 2014 (GMT)

I would like to point out that I got the information about the Rieklings from @baratron (I think that is how you spell it). I think that we should leave out a list of tribes because it isn't overly useful from a lore point of view. After all, tribe names could change every year for all we know. Names could be based of the leader's whims (I think the ones at Toothmaul Gully were named like that) or some other factor. ~ Ad intellige ^(talk) 03:27, 28 July 2014 (GMT)

Actually, I believe the goblin tribes are lore-worthy, especially since we've seen the Bloody Hand tribe in both Oblivion and ESO. The ESO riekling situation is explained here. —Legoless (talk) 17:48, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

I actually suggested a short paragraph per tribe, describing their location, other interesting things about them. Jeancey (talk) 17:50, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

I'd be willing to write that up. Do we want them listed on this page or what? —Legoless (talk) 18:04, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

That's what I was thinking. If my general feeling is correct, there should be around 20 tribes? I think? Maybe a bit less. Jeancey (talk) 18:09, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

(←) Eight from Oblivion anyway. We don't have a list for the ones from ESO, but I'll do my best and we can add more in as the names get confirmed. —Legoless (talk) 18:26, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

I was thinking of a table like the one in the lycanthropy page. I think goblins and rieklings do look similar, but besides that I think that Rieklings=Ice Goblins and Goblins should be explored on this page. Same thing with taming. I will try to write something about these two topics.--Ashendant (talk) 18:46, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

That table on the lycanthropy page is pretty old and non-standard. It would be better with individual sections. The riekling page I linked above clarifies the relationship with goblins, so aside from a basic note I don't think we should be exploring it much. —Legoless (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

Ok. I rewrote that part of the information that was on the Riekling page and made it adequate for this page. I also added the info on taming similar to how it was on the Riekling page. Feel free to alter it or change its place to where you see fit.--Ashendant (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

Are Durzogs tamed by goblins outside of Morrowind in ESO?--Ashendant (talk) 19:16, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

Yep, they're always together. —Legoless (talk) 19:22, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

(←) Thanks, good to know.--Ashendant (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2014 (GMT)

Usage of an UOL source image

I'm curious about the validity of using a discarded concept art as a source for a direct statement about "tribes" of goblins. UESP has a policy of using the UOL sources and the usage of such piece of concept art directly opposes the aforementioned policy. Phoenix Neko (talk) 23:09, 15 October 2019 (GMT)

Can you point me to the citation you are referencing as I can't find the one using discarded concept art. Theres one concept are linked in Gallery, but not as a reference to the tribes. Kiz^{(email - talk)} 23:29, 15 October 2019 (GMT)

This is the cited art in question (please do not remove topics in question before discussing them). Concept art that is published by Bethesda is not UOL (I don't think it'd be fair to call Skylamps for example not canon even when they're depicted in art created by Bethesda and officially published in retail books by Zenimax). I can understand discarded concept art being deemed UOL, such as the Ebonarm concept art that was posted by its author but not on any official Zenimax site, as it would not be published for a reason. The art in question isn't on display anymore because the site is constantly updated with changes in style, but since it was featured on the official Bethesda site in the past I really would not consider that it would be deemed unofficial. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:20, 16 October 2019 (GMT)

I would consider concept art to be "pre-release information" that shouldn't be used as a source in lore unless it actually made it into the live game. If it didn't make it into the game, we shouldn't use it, as per our rules on pre-release information in lore. This shouldn't really be a discussion on UOL vs non-UOL at all, but of Pre-Release vs Released. Jeancey (talk) 00:25, 16 October 2019 (GMT)

Whatever policy it falls under, I think a more pressing issue is that the source does not mention any goblin tribes. It is suggesting the role male Wood Elves would fill in the world: that all humanoid-ish forest gremlins would be Wood Elves, and references several real world mythological creatures. To use that discarded concept (since Wood Elves are not glamoured forest beasts) to say that those two terms are actual tribes of goblins seems improper. --Lost in Hyrule (talk) 13:36, 16 October 2019 (GMT)

It wasn't put under tribes, it was put under subraces. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:58, 16 October 2019 (GMT)

(←) Same point stands. "We'll make Wood Elf men gross fey creatures, like satyrs and boggles and redcaps and boarfolk." Then they didn't do that with Wood Elves, so we can't really suggest any of those things exist in TES based on that source. We especially can't say that they are types of goblins from it. --Lost in Hyrule (talk) 20:28, 16 October 2019 (GMT)

I've reverted this again, I believe Lost is correct that this Bosmer concept art has nothing to do with redcaps being a type of forest goblin. —⁠Legoless (talk) 09:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I also don't see any connection between the two and support TheVampKnight's removal of it. At best that image could serve as a note on the Bosmer page, but that's about all I can see. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 09:56, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

As a user of the UESP myself I looked at the Redcap sourcing, and saw it was just the original concept for the Bosmer. Where the the men were going to be the forest goblins and thus being being redcaps, tree trolls, satyrs and whatever. Nothing at all related to actual Tes Goblins and more tied to a fae like concept that seems to be an early idea for the Bosmer. That is what led to the removal, because what Lost in Hyrule said above last year, is the exact reason why I removed it in the first place. I also agree with AKB that it would be best placed on the Bosmer page listed in the notes section as that is something I thought would be a good idea myself as I was thinking about it. --TheVampKnight (talk) 23:12, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Goboloids?

Recently user SoftSilence added in "Goboloids" as an alternate name for Goblins. I added a fact tag as I couldn't find a source anywhere. If anyone can find a source for this info, please add it; if not, I'll remove it from the page at the end of the month. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Server lag? It currently has a citation to the dialogue on Online:Gar. If there is some other issue with citation I did not realize, apologies for the confusion. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 18:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

After speaking with AKB it appears that "Goboloids" was added into Gar's wiki page dialogue after my initial search, and AKB confirmed in-game that both the audio and subtitles make no mention of Goboloids. It appears nowhere in the lang.csv files either. I will give user SoftSilence the benefit of the doubt as maybe they just misheard it and added it in, but it for future notice we should keep in mind that this term appears nowhere in the series. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:21, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Second Goblin Invasion and the Goblin Gate

It seems that "Notes For Redguard History" from Daggerfall is the only source of not only the second Goblin invasion, but also the Goblin Gate being from another dimension. Firstly, due to the many similarities in both initiating events (Hallin is the last Ansei) and outcomes (Hallin defeats the goblins and teaches the Shehai to the Redguards), are we sure that this story is a separate event and hasn't just been retconned/merged into the story in the True-Told Tale of Hallin? It doesn't make much sense if the Redguards forgot the Shehai, got invaded by goblins, relearned the Shehai, forgot it again, were invaded by goblins again, and relearned it for a third time, all in the lifetime of Hallin. Since Notes For Redguard History being oral tradition written down for the first time, it seems more logical to me that the two stories depict the same events. Secondly, do we know anything about the dimension that the giant goblins are said to come from? It appears that Notes for Redguard History alludes to the Void as the answer, but this doesn't make a ton of sense to me. If this just meant Oblivion instead of the greater void, the Ashpit would make sense for the realm of the goblins, but I'm curious if there is any other information for where the giant goblins originated from? BananaKing5 (talk) 06:51, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

We don't really know where they orignated. The notes in daggerfall's file about the stories call it another dimension. Kirkbride made a post saying the idea was something like "Goblins from Planet X".

And I feel the two Hallin stories have to be different. As the goblin gate isn't even involved in Hallins second tale. I don't think the redguards necessarily forgot the shehai twice. I don't think he started teaching it in the first tale. And the second tale merely says the specific city had forgot, he might have not started properly teaching others till later in life.- Tarponpet (talk) 12:05 AM, 6 May 2024 (EST)

For the dimension part, fair enough. Though looking at Kirkbride's post, he does seem to say the Goblin Gate was an idea that was later ignored. I was going to ask if this goblin dimension should be listed in Lore:Planes of Existence, but it is probably best left unmentioned since it's been seemingly dropped by Bethesda and the in-game book doesn't claim it is actually a brand new "unheard of" dimension.

I'm still a little conflicted on if the two stories are meant to be different (especially if the NFRH story and the Goblin Gate was ignored later on), since the "True-Told" Tale seems to be the true story of Hallin fighting the goblins, with the NFRH story being a "fake-told" embellishment from years of storytelling. However, your explanation makes a lot of sense and avoids resorting to unreliable narration or a retcon, so that's probably the best answer here. The second tale does still refer to Hallin as the last Ansei, so it implies more than just Ojwambu forgot the Shehai, but that wouldn't discredit any of what you said if NFRH's ending of restoring the Shehai is referring to the later events described in TTTToH. BananaKing5 (talk) 20:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Its also worth noting that an ESO source refers to the "Curse of Divad" as something the last known giant goblin avoided. And thats specifically a reference to the cut text where Divad first closed the goblin gate and caused many of the giant goblins to shrink. They definetly were still using it as a source and thats also the sources that specify they definely came from another realm.

I do think the Giant Goblin Realm might deserve a page or entry of some kind, but it could infact be a plane we're already aware of. So yeah I'm fine either way if it gets one or note. - Tarponpet (talk) 4:42 PM, 6 May 2024 (EST)

That's a great point about the ESO source. The "Curse of Divad" mention is actually in TTTToH, I guess I just didn't realize that was directly referencing NFRH and the cut text, my bad lol. Combined with the fact that TTTToH implies Hallin was already a well respected warrior and that Throne Keeper Farvad clearly alludes to the NFRH with her "Song of Divad" line of dialogue, it seems the Second Invasion is rather securely canon despite what I previously thought.

With those sources backing up the Second Invasion story with the Giant Goblin Realm, I'd probably now lean towards the realm getting a mentioned somewhere. BananaKing5 (talk) 00:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)