Lore talk:Echatere

"Shaggy giant centipede"

Now I agree that it shouldn't have been mentioned in the main lore section, I however do see the need of having it put in the notes section. As for the roleplay the source you provided has him roleplaying in character, because of this it can't be discredited. This source is also from the former lore master and talks a bit about them from a not in character prospective. Which is the vital thing really as it gives us a good account of the process. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:ESO_Live_Lawrence_Schick_Wrothgar_Interview Lawrence: Yeah! And then I thought we’d want some… you know, this is the northern reaches and what do we know about the arctic and antarctic? Cute birds. That’s right. So to go along with things like puffins and penguins and things like that we came up with the Chub Loon, waddling around, you know, eating fish and being adorable. So, but not all the critters originate from that sort of holistic overview. Sometimes they come from serendipity so that is why I am going to tell you about the Echalette. That’s the little Echatere. You know the echatere are the big, weird livestock that live in Wrothgar and...

He also talked about how they looked into the lore for the stuff in that region as well. So even if the roleplay thing where he was in character where his character may be a skeptic, says one thing. That does not mean they didn't in fact base the creature of the one mentioned in the lore. As its design is clearly based off the idea of a insect mammal thing.

I've tried looking for the npc source, but there is one in Orsinium I think I recall that called them insect like or was afraid of them because of their legs, not sure trying to find that actually. But either way their legs are not a mammalian trait, that is clear by their leg designs that is a trait that is unique to insects. They are mammalian but they have bug legs. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:The_Tenpenny_Winter...Again Makes direct reference to the beasts listed in the book, they are directly mentioned to be herded by Orcs.

The reason why the note should be there is because, of their design matches most of the traits described for the Herdbeasts with the exception of the centipede thing. The role they serve for Orcs matches the lore found within that book for the most part, and given the context of the lore and the traits that the creature matches and the design clearly being based off it, It should be noted for sure on the lore page.TheVampKnight (talk) 13:31, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Schick's comments on General:Lawrence Schick's Posts predate Orsinium's release by about a month. I don't think an in-character Reddit comment can entirely disprove the correlation between the centipede herdbeasts and echateres; it certainly seems clear to me that a shaggy species of Wrothgarian 6-legged heardbeasts draws inspiration from the old PGE1 info. Would be good to have direct confirmation of this before providing a link on the PGE1 page though. —⁠Legoless (talk) 14:29, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

**This discussion is about the connection, or lack thereof between the "Shaggy giant centipedes" and Echatere creatures in ESO.**

The mentions of the centipede being mythical comes from Lady Honnorah af-Lahreq Answers Your Questions (not just an in-character Reddit comment). Here we have an in-universe expert who is well read on the subject saying they are probably mythical. Loremaster's Archive is official.

I've read the Lawrence Schick Wrothgar Interview, and nothing in that backs up what you are saying. All he mentions is how they came up with the Echatere. Its no surprise that a shaggy, wooly creatures are found in cold climates - in the lore we have mammoths, welwas, etc.

You've not provided the NPC source, but it doesn't sound substantial. I have no idea why your trying to class Echatere as insects just because of the shape of their legs (that are not particularly bug-like, IMO), despite the face there are many other attributes that say they are not (provide milk, etc). Have you seen what a centipede looks like? Many legs, long body. In what way do Echatere share these traits? Don't just handwave this point, because its the crux of the argument. If you're about to say that's just the author's error, then don't because its not our job to start assuming what parts of books are errors unless there is actual lore to back that up. If we did that, most of PGE1 would be marked as errors. We should lay out the facts.

The MK book General:The_Tenpenny_Winter...Again does indeed mention the "shaggy centipedes the Orc Tribes herd", but it has zero mention of Echatere. Any connection is coming from you. So again, the facts point to two separate creatures with exactly 2 similarities (shaggy and herdbeasts). Are we saying there is exclusively one and ONLY one type of shaggy creature Orcs herd?

The fact is the lore is vague and we need to live with that and not come up with ways to make things fit. Ultimately it looks like you're bringing your own interpretation into this and trying hard to connect the two creatures because it would be convenient to tie up these loose ends in the lore. That's why the note was removed.

I don't disagree that Echatere may draw inspiration from the PGE1 info, but at the very very best, the only way I can see a reasonable mention of these centipede creatures on this page is a note that says something to the effect of: "Alongside Echatere being used as herdbeasts, Orcs are also believed to have herded unspecified shaggy giant centipedes, however some believe these accounts to be mythical."

This way it removes all interpretation or theories, and only states the facts.--Jimeee (talk) 15:02, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

That is how I see it personally, for sure it shouldn't be used as a lore link on the PGE1 however, it does deserve a mention on this lore page. The only reason I even added the link to the book was because we were covering it already on this page and I'm glad Jimeee looked into it.

Jimee we could word like this as well, Orcs are believed to herd shaggy giant centipedes, however its unknown if they are Echatere, or another independent herd beast. As we shouldn't be stating it like its a fact that they are a separate creature and I'd say circumstantial evidence seems to point in the direction that it is the same creature but for right now we are unable to verify it and will need a direct sourcing of some type outside of personal connecting the dots. Hopefully there will be something related to this subject in the future that we can use to confirm it officially through proper sources/references. TheVampKnight (talk) 15:17, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree it's worth pointing out that circumstantial evidence indicates that the myths of Orcs herding centipedes "probably" refer to echatere, even if there isn't any direct confirmation of such. I would prefer wording to that effect rather than a statement of fact that the centipedes are definitely a separate creature. Shaggy multi-legged herdbeasts found only in Wrothgar is 4 out of 5 in my mind. —⁠Legoless (talk) 16:26, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree 100% with how Legoless worded it and it would be fine to go with Vamp's solution of keeping it on as a note. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:52, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Saying that an in-character comment from Schick is reason enough to say Echaterre aren't the centipedes is kinda dumb, tbh. Schick is on record saying that anything he writes in character isn't definitive and can often include information that, out of character, he considers to be incorrect. The redguard character Schick was playing has never been to Wrothgar and was far from an expert, as this statement shows: ""Well, I don't know—I've never seen a bear, but I have seen pictures of them, and I think at a glance one might very well be mistaken for a great woolly caterpillar".Jacksol (talk) 18:18, 25 March 2021 (UTC)