Lore talk:Dwemeris

Would the analysis on this page be in any way derived or influenced by the work and notes I had previously posted at the discussion page for Lore:Dwemer Alphabet on December 10th, 2016? It appears that a great deal was copied verbatim into the gloss and footnotes. Saxo Grammaticus (talk) 18:06, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I was the one who made the most of the current content - but it was my own analysis from scratch. I had never seen your notes until I read this post :P Also, I based this stuff on Bethesda's official translation of Calcelmo's Stone, while your notes seem to predate its release. It's good to know someone else is interested in that too, though! --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 19:08, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick response; it seems we came to many of the same conclusions, with a few differences here and there in interpretation. I have a complete google doc of my notes here if you'd like to compare it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12FS45X3EdidYWWGIzMKXQT_uFJ22U0FiZ4gU_R5wVg4/edit

--Saxo Grammaticus (talk) 21:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Proper misinterpretation of Dwemer toponyms?

Hey guys, really happy to see someone actually translate the Dwemer words on Calcelmo's stone. I'm sure many have noticed that many of the words upon the stone are present in Dwemer onomastics (not the names in ESO, though, they seem like faux-Dwemer gibberish). Here I tried to make meaning of the known Dwemer places across Tamriel. Note that I don't understand Dwemer grammar, so may of these translations may be wrong, but the roots of the words are there. These translations are based on the ones of the Calcelmo Stone text posted here on UESP by Saxo and Vordur. There are, of course names that are untranslatable, and I have made some assumptions regarding the meaning of some words not confirmed in sources or the Stone.

Assumptions not confirmed by the Stone or books:

First - That "nchar"=tower and "dak"=hundred; the compound word is given by Master Neloth in DB, I can't confirm that it isn't the other way around, but it makes more sense this way when you apply it on other place-names as well.

Second - That "lef-"=ancestor/dead; this is pure assumption based on an ingame book. There is no word involving the root "lef" in Calcelmo's Stone, but this does appear as a part of many Dwemer place-names. I mostly base this assumption on the fact that a place, which is apparently a tomb for a back-stabbed Dwemer Lord is called Leftunch, if "tunch"~"THUNCH"=fear, then we get a placename called "Fear of Death" or "Afraid of the Ancestors".

Locations - Hammerfell

Volenfell - City/Kingdom of the Hammer

From book "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition Hammerfell".

Locations - Morrowind

Aleft - Of the Ancestors?

"left"=ancestor(assumption based on context).

Arkngthand - Gifted Steam Gardens?

"ARKNG"=gift; "THAND"=steam gardens.

Arkngthunch-Sturdumz - Gift of the Fear of Enemy Culture?

Lolwat? "ARKNG"=grace/gift; "THUNCH"=fear; "STUR"=enemy; "THUMZ"=culture.

Bamz-Amschend - ??? Passage/Portal?

"CHEND"=passage.

Bethamez - Many Powers?

"AMZ"=many; "BTHAM"=power.

Bthanchend - Pass/Portal of Knowledge?

"BTHUN"=believe/know; "CHEND"=passage.

Bthuand - Belief/Knowing?

"BTHUN"=believe/know.

Bthungthumz - Belief/Knowing of Culture?

"BTHUN"=believe/know; "THUMZ"=culture.

Hendor-Stardumz - ??? Many Enemies?

"STUR"=enemy; "AMZ"=many From book "Chronicles of Nchuleft".

Kemel-Ze - Cliff City

From book "The Ruins of Kemel-Ze".

Kherakah - ???

"AKA"=kings. From book "Nchunak's Fire and Faith".

Leftunch - Fear of the Ancestors?

"left"=ancestor(assumption based on context); "THUNCH"=fear. From book "Chronicles of Nchuleft".

Mudan - ???

Mzahnch - Of the Beginning?

"MZAN"=begin.

Mzanchend - Start of the Passage/Portal?

"MZAN"=begin; "CHEND"=passage/portal.

Mzuleft - Mercy of the Ancestors?

"MZUAL"=mercy; "left"=ancestor(assumption based on context).

Nchardahrk - Broken Tower?

If we are to believe that "Nchar"=tower, as referenced by Neloth in Dragonborn.

Nchardumz - Tower of Culture?

"nchar"=tower(hypothesis based on Master Neloth's sayings) "dumz"~"THUMZ"=culture.

Nchuleft - Fruit of the Ancestors?

"NCHUL"=fruit; "left"=ancestor(assumption based on context).

Nchuleftingth - New Fruit of the Ancestors?

"INGTH"=new.

Nchurdamz - Symbol of Many?

"AMZ"=many; "NCHUR"=symbol.

Raled-Makei - Former Shelter?

"AMAKAI"=survival; "RALZ"=before. From book "The Ruins of Kemel-Ze".

Vvardenfell - City of the Strong Shield

"AHVARDN"=protect. From book "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition Morrowind". Maybe originally called "Vardnfell".

Locations - Skyrim

Alftand - Grateful/Gifted Steam Gardens?

"ALFT"=grateful; "THAND"=steam garden.

Arkngthamz - Grace of the Many?

"ARKNG"=grace/gift; "AMZ"=many.

Avanchnzel - City of the fifteen ???

"AVATHELED"=fifteen-and-one.

Bthalft - ??? Gratitude?

"ALFT"=grateful.

Bthar-Zel - Allied-City

From book "Katria's Journal".

Bthardamz - Of Many Allies?

"BTHAR"=ally; "AMZ"=many.

Fal'Zhardum Din - Blackest Kingdom Reaches

From book "Dwemer Inquiries, vol.II".

Irkngthand - Dark Steam Gardens?

"IRKNGTH"=darkness; "THAND"=steam garden.

Kagrenzel - City of Music?

"KAGREN"=music.

Mzark - ???

Mzinchaleft - Against the Ancestors?

If "-left"=ancestor (See Leftunch).

Mzulft - Mercy of the ancestors?

Similar to Mzuleft?

Nchuand-Zel - Radiant City?

City of Lights? What with the Falmer transcription of Calcelmo's Stone and the official translation, we get "NCHUAN"=light/radiance.

Raldbthar - Final Allies?

"RALD"=final; "BTHAR"=ally.

Rkund - ???

Locations - Solstheim

Fahlbtharz - Not-Allied/Unbound?

"FAHL"=no,not; "BTHAR"=allied.

Kagrumez - Many tones?

"KAGR"=tone; "AMZ"=many. Maybe "Many Noises" considering it's an arena of sorts.

Nchardak - Hundred Towers

Master Neloth calls Nchardak "The City of a Hundred Towers", so "nchar"=tower; "dak"=hundred (assumption).

Also sorry for the horrible formatting.

Some issues and observations

1.)Okay, so first off I'd like to point out the massive discrepancy of Tuathumz. On Calcelmo's stone, "tua-" seems to be a form of "Your", but in ESO, the entire word gets translated as "Central Pillar"... Based on the existence of tuamkingth, I claim that the ESO translation, although official, is wrong. I don't know if it's supposed to be inconsistent (in the way that much of Elder Scrolls in-world information can be inconsistent), or whether it's a genuine fault, or that our translation is just wrong?

2.) Anyway, I stumbled upon something relating to the "Ark" class of words: arkngd(were given), duumarkng(the grace of the Dwemer), ngark(thanks), duarkng(of our affection). All these words are to do with appreciation, or gratitude, or charity, or something along that general line. Interestingly enough, "ngark", the odd one out, is also the only word that gives appreciation. The other words expect appreciation. As in, thanks is more in favour of the listener, while all other words are more in favour of the speaker, if that makes sense. Now, this is significant because "ngark > ng ark > ark ng > arkng". So reversing ark and ng may potentially turn the word into a sort of "reverse". Like "Arkng" is "We expect you to appreciate this" and "ngark" is "We appreciate this". So this may suggest a grammatical construct in Dwemeris where word-parts can be reversed to mean something vaguely opposite.

3.) -ingth seems to mean "new", because "tuamkingth"(your new lives) and "vanchningth"(new eternity). Alternatively, "Ningth" and "Kingth" could be different forms, but we know that Dwemeris has some strange consonant combinations, and "ingth" just seems more logical to me.

4.) It's quite clear to me, based on the various... inconsistencies? in the translation, that the English text is a bit loose with its translations, and is more concerned with sounding good than being exactly accurate, as many words roots that are the same in Dwemeris, are synonyms in English. As such, it might be constructive (at least in the Talk Page) to figure out more direct translations of the various words and word-bits (Similar to how I did with the "ark-ng" category of words). Having such a more consistent definition bank may also help identify word-chunks better, since Dwemeris is a conglomorate language.

5.) I'm curious what is up with "Duum" and "Du", why are they different? Does this mean there's potentially a "thuum" word?

6.) "avatheled"(15 and 1) I suspect, is "ava-th-eled", since "th" is "and". Now this is interesting, and suggests that the counting system of the Dwemer is not base ten. It might be base 15, as it is not uncommon for languages to count "[multiple-of-max-of-base] and [number]", so I believe it is one of the following: Base 15, Base 5 or Base 3. I reckon Base 5 or 15 are most likely, and am leaning more towards base 15.

8.) I also suspect that, when two words merge which results in a twin-vowel, it merges instead, as exemplified in "duarkng" "Dua"(Our) merges with "arkng"(give/gift/expected appreciation), but instead of becoming "duaarkng" it merges and becomes "Duarkng". It won't be "du + arkng" I don't think, because then it would be "we give" not "our gift". (Originally edited by me on 7 August 2019, forgot to add signature, so here it is now:) Kamica (talk) 06:46, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

Independent Translation

Hello, everybody! I have a background in historical linguistics, but love video games and particularly the Elder Scrolls. Though I am not really a fan of how TES series handles language, I still find TES languages interesting. Though, honestly, any fictional language is interesting to me. Not long ago, I did my own independent translation of the elvish part of Calcelmo's Stone. However, I haven't really analysed it in comparison to anyone else's translations. Today, I brought it upon myself to translate the Dwemer part. Not knowing that we particularly had a page on the Dwemer language (I suppose I spent a lot of time on the alphabet, rather) I was excited to see that the translations on this page were somewhat close to mine. However, I have many oppositions. I will post below my speculations.

I have also sought to separate compounds where I could determine them. I used no other source than the official translation from the Imperial Library (which translates the Falmer part) and Calcelmo's Stone. If one would like to discuss my take on the translation (on either the Falmer part—which I won't post here—or the Dwemer part), please email me (azalee@gmx.co.uk). I'm very new to having an account here, so I think that email correspondence might be the best method of communication until I discover more. I also apologise for the way in which I've set up the translation. It's sloppy and a first draft, but I would rather start there and get input before moving on. Without further ado:

Chun (thus/that?) thua-mer (your people) arkngd ([were] given) chend (portal/passage/path[way]) dua-thand (our halls) th (and) ahvardn (the protection) btham ([of] power/maths)

Amz (many) Thua-mer (your people) ahrkanch (died) kemel-mzul-chond ([of] roaring, snow-throated?) aka (kings?) Mora ([of] [At]mora) th (and) thua-ngz (your wills) ahrk ([were] broken) th (and) duum (we?) melz (heard) thua-tharng (your calls?) th (and) kanthaln (sent) dua-bcharn (our machines) mzin (against) thua-stur (your enemies) btharumz (to take) thua mer (your people) zel (under)

Abak-ch (only by) duum-arkng (our grace) tuathumz (your culture) amakai (survived) th (and) abak-ch (only by) avatheled (fifteen-and-one) *Note: (Falmer: avathelia). My speculation is that the Falmer adopted the word. kagr (tones) tua-mki-ngth (your new lives) *Note: I am certain that "ngth" means 'new' based on the word "vanchni-ngth" ("final path"). It could be "ingth" I suppose, as well, but I favour the former lemma. mzan (began)

Du (we) chal (desire) fahl (not) ngark (thanks) che (because) du (we) fahl (not) bthun (know) ur (it)

Du (we) chal (desire) fahl (not) ngalft (gratitude) che (because) du (we) bthun (know) ur (it) *Notice that "not"/fahl is strangely absent.

Du (we) abak (only) chal (desire) thu (you) abazun (accept) nchur (the symbol) dua-bthar ([of] our bonds) nchul ([the] fruit) dua-nchard ([of] our stones)

Th (and) ur (as?) thua-nchuth (your vision) irknd (darkens), ur (as?) irkgth (darkness) *Note the similarity to "irknd". eftar-dn (sets in), thunch (fear) fahlz (not) *Note: "fahlz" could translate to "never". But I merely speculate on this.

Bthun (Know) abak (only) dua-mzual (our mercy) th (and) nchuan (radiance) dua-rkng ([of] our affection) Note: I think that "rking" ("affection") might be a variation of "arking" ("grace"), rather than a mistake.

chun (that?) fahl (not) bthar (binds) thua-nchardch (your bones) *Note the similarity of nchardch to nchard ("stones"). anum (earth) ralz (before) th (and) eftar (sets) thua-chend-raldch (your path-final) kagren ([to] music) thua-vanchni-ngth ([of] your eternity-new)

It is pretty difficult, I think, to break compound words in Dwemeris. For example, if Mzul means snow, then "Mzulft" can suggest either a variation of the word (such as a noun) or suggest that "ft" is another word or neither. Then there's "Mzuleft". Feel free to email me and let me know where you disagree and where you agree.

Cheers! The Apostle of Auri-El (talk) 12:52, 1 April 2020 (GMT)

Suggested Phonetic Reading

This isn't meant to be an accurate synopsis of Dwemeris as spoken by the Dwemer, but rather a convention for pronouncing texts such as Calcelmo's Stone (cf Modern Egyptological Pronunciation of Hieroglyphs)

The formula I use for deciding between allophonic readings is

/ɛ/C_C/t͡_C
ɛ/ɛ̯/LC_CL|#C_CL|LC_C#
://V:V_|#V_
n/ŋ/_k|_g|_χ
/ʔ/V_V

Chun thuamer arkngd chend duathand, th ahvardn btham.
[t͡ʃun θuʔamer arɛkɛnɛgɛd t͡ʃenɛ̯d duʔaθanɛ̯d | θ‿aħɛ̯ʋarɛdɛn bɛ̯θam]

Amz thuamer ahrkanch kemelmzulchond aka Mora,
[amɛ̯z θuʔamer aħɛrɛkanɛt͡ʃ kemelɛmɛzulɛt͡ʃonɛ̯d aka mora]

th thuangz ahrk, th duum melz thuabtharng,
[θ‿θuʔanɛgɛz aħɛrɛk | θ‿duʔum melɛ̯z θuʔabɛ̯θarɛnɛg]

th kanthaln duabcharn mzin thuastur,
[θ‿kanɛ̯θalɛ̯n duʔabɛt͡ʃarɛ̯n mɛ̯zin θuʔasɛ̯tur]

btharumz thuamer zel.
[bɛ̯θarumɛ̯z θuʔamer zel]

Abakch duumarkng tuathumz amakai,
[abakɛt͡ʃ duʔumarɛkɛnɛg tuʔaθumɛ̯z amakaʔi]

th abakch avatheled kagr tuamkingth mzan.
[θ‿abakɛt͡ʃ aʋaθeled kagɛ̯r tuʔamɛ̯kinɛgɛθ mɛ̯zan]

Du chal fahl ngark, che du fahl bthun ur.
[du t͡ʃal faħɛ̯l nɛ̯garɛ̯k | t͡ʃe du faħɛ̯l bɛ̯θun ur]

Du chal fahl ngalft, che du fahl bthun ur.
[du t͡ʃal faħɛ̯l nɛ̯galɛfɛt | t͡ʃe du faħɛ̯l bɛ̯θun ur]

Du abak chal thu abazun nchur duabthar, nchul duanchard.
[du abak t͡ʃal θu abazun nɛt͡ʃur duʔabɛ̯θar | nɛt͡ʃul duʔanɛt͡ʃarɛ̯d]

Th ur thuanchuth irknd, ur irkngth eftardn, thunch fahlz.
[θ‿ur θuʔanɛt͡ʃuθ irɛkɛnɛd | ur irɛkɛnɛgɛθ efɛ̯tarɛdɛn | θunɛt͡ʃ faħɛ̯lɛz]

Bthun abak duamzual th nchuan duarkng,
[bɛ̯θun abak duʔamɛ̯zuʔal θ‿nɛt͡ʃuʔan duʔarɛkɛnɛg]

chun fahlbthar thuanchardch anum ralz,
[t͡ʃun faħɛ̯lɛbɛ̯θar θuʔanɛt͡ʃarɛdɛt͡ʃ anum ralɛ̯z]

th eftar thuachendraldch kagren thuavanchningth.
[θ‿efɛ̯tar θuʔat͡ʃenɛdɛralɛdɛt͡ʃ kagɛ̯ren θuʔaʋanɛt͡ʃɛninɛgɛθ]

Elymais (talk) 03:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Dwemer affixes

Previously, the Dwemer affix -i was cited as being a plural one. However, I don't think that is accurate, but rather a misinterpretation of the quoted text.

The source says: "Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec."

If one is to analyze the meaning of the word Dwemeri, they would know that Dwemer is the name given to the people and, in addition to that, that the meaning of the first part of the sentence must be "Kagrenac, high priest of the Dwemer". That would be a correct assumption from our current knowledge of the language.

In spite of that, it is not a plural affix. You see, in English, the plural suffix and the possessive suffix are very similar. The first is -s, while the second is -'s, with the only difference being orthographical, that is, the apostrophe. Both have the same pronunciation. Compare "stones" with "stone's".

Dwemer might not have a plural affix at all, as far as we know. When you're talking about possession, the correct way to classify such affix is to call it a genitive affix, or a possessive affix. — Unsigned comment by 189.83.145.252 (talk) at 18:33 on 21 August 2021 (UTC)

I think this person just took Dwemeri for a native term from dwemer language

It is more simple than that, someone just wrote Dwemeri like they would write Iraqi, Irani, Israeli and so on...

Not sure if it's worth it, but I don't think we have an established terminology in place so that people wouldn't confuse themselves at times

109.252.202.134 09:20, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Iva

The -i suffix is common to lots of races in TES (Altmeri, Khajiiti) and doesn't have anything to do with real world ethnicities. It is not a plural, it is the adjective form. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:02, 1 October 2021 (UTC)