Lore talk:Ancients

Ayleid theory

It can be summed up as "The Ayleid are the first folk on Auridon i.e. the Ancients." I don't get where it came from. Let's deconstruct it sentence by sentence. I apologize for my English and hope that my words are clear enough.

1. "Conflicting sources describe them as Aldmer, Altmer, and Ayleid, although the latter is doubtful as the Altmer claim to be the direct, pure-blooded descendants of the ancient Aldmer.[1]".

What are these "conflicting sources" anyway? Here we have PGE3/Summerset as a [1] source. But the only mention of the Ayleid on PGE3/Summerset page is this: "the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid." So it tells exactly the opposite of what the current article asserts. Also, PGE3/Summerset does not "describe [the Ancients] as Aldmer, Altmer, and Ayleid", so the source of that statement is not specified.

2. "One argument for the Ayleidic origin theory is the similarity between the architecture of the ruins on Auridon and the Ayleid ruins of mainland Tamriel."

What have we here? An original research. One of the loading screens says: "There are obvious similarities between Altmer architecture and that of their cousins the Ayleids, but there are clear differences as well. High Elven architecture is cleaner and more direct, with less baroque ornamentation than that of the Wild Elves." That is, it states that the similarity of the architecture should not be viewed as an argument and so the argument should be deleted from the article as invalid (and not stated by any in-game researcher).

3. "However, it is claimed that Altmer architecture is cleaner and more direct, with less baroque ornamentation than that of the Ayleids."

Okay, this answers the previous point by citing the aforementioned loading screen, but the previous point shouldn't be there in the first place. We don't put original researches in the articles for the sake of refuting them, do we?

4. "The ruin of Ezduiin is thought to have been built by ancient Altmer,[2] although some Mages Guild researchers argue that it is Ayleid.[3]"

The [3] source links us to the Naarcaano page, but it does not contain the corresponding line of dialogue, so we can't really make any conclusions from it. I've quickly created an Altmer scholar at PTS and made my way to meet Naarcaano. He says exactly this: "Ezduiin was once an elegant Ayleid-ish town. A testament to the greatness of the ancients." I said farewell and logged out. Ayleid-ish doesn't mean Ayleid, as I understand. It means Ayleid-like, clearly describing the similarity in the architecture, but not the nation, which would be jumping to the unintended and unsupported conclusion.

5. "In his book Auridon Explored, Fenlil the Wayfarer asserts that the Altmer of Summerset are in fact the descendants of exiled Ayleids, who fled to Valenwood following the Alessian Slave Rebellion and first landed on the northern tip of Auridon."

The most interesting passage, which moved me to start this discussion. "Auridon Explored" doesn't say a word about "the descendants of exiled Ayleids, who fled to Valenwood following the Alessian Slave Rebellion".

6. "The Ayleid theory is also discredited by the belief that the Ayleids never fled to Summerset.[6]"

Indeed. The every source we have states exactly that, and no source state otherwise. The [6] link is to the devs' comment which says that there is no Ayleid ruins on the Summersets (not counting an Ayleid-ish one).

So I propose that the page should be cleared of any traces of this "Ayleid theory" and merged with the Aldmer page, combining the information. Phoenix Neko (talk) 05:21, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

It seems every source has been changed since the writing of this article, without anyone noting these pretty major changes. See the old version of Auridon Explored for the original source. That guy's dialogue has also changed if he's now saying "Ayleid-ish". I'll revise the page later, although tbh it probably has very little reason exist now that Ancients = Aldmer. —Legoless (talk) 09:08, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Huh, pretty major changes it is. I didn't see that old version of the book. It makes sense now. And I found a video on Youtube with Naarcaano, and the voiceover still says "Ayleid town", so the dialogue indeed been changed later.Phoenix Neko (talk) 10:47, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Soooo? Phoenix Neko (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Been busy, but I've restored the older version of Chapter XII and amended this page. Chapter I was also edited by a patch but there were no changes of substance. —Legoless (talk) 21:23, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

I think there is no need in the older version as it has been confirmed to be an error. Phoenix Neko (talk) 18:52, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

We know it's an error, but it was in the game for months and should be documented. This page has been amended to specifically point out the error. —Legoless (talk) 18:57, 13 June 2016 (UTC)