Lore talk:Alduin

Similarity

I'm wondering: has anyone ever equated the story of Alduin eating the life time of the Nords with the Dragon Break?

-129.132.143.124 14:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

No, it doesnt seem to be the same to me, similar, but probably not the same thing.--Stranger 00:44, 12 October 2011 (GMT)

Books

It seems the part about him eating away the age of all the Nords doesn't fit in right. Why is just one bit of lore included? Instead perhaps the book(s) that feature Alduin should be in a list instead of trying to include little bits of the story that seem out of place.--Zar Pof 14:33, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

A list of books is already found in the references. If this page was simply listing references, it would have no content. If you can improve the sentences to include more of the story (relevant to Alduin of course), then feel free. But removing the information entirely would defeat the article's purpose - to document all we know about him, even if it's an unlikely legend. --Legoless 14:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

how do you pronounce his name i was always useing a-lu-din?

look at question

In the game, they usually pronounce his name as All-doo-in or Al-doo-in.RIM 18:19, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

We Need A Spoiler Warning (11/18/11)

Someone who might want to read up on the lore of Alduin but not know some revelations about him from the game Skyrim might be pretty pissed to find a big reveal right on the front page. (I know I was) Please, can we get the previous article with the new info at the bottom under spoilers?

Perhaps you're unfamiliar with wiki policies regarding spoiler warnings... THERE ARE NONE. 74.70.240.69 21:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there is already a spoiler warning -- right at the top of the main page. --Brf 21:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Battles he was involved in?

Is there any particular reason (spoilers perhaps?) why there is no mention of his fight with the 3 Nords atop the Throat of the World, or with the Dovahkiin? — Unsigned comment by 74.74.131.246 (talk) at 20:10 on 27 November 2011 (GMT)

Yes, there is a reason: nobody has bothered adding it yet. --Legoless 16:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The Way of The Voice had nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Greybeard Order founded after Alduin's banishment. If so I'ss change the article.--Br3admax 02:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The Way of the Voice was Jurgen Windcaller's invention, IIRC. He taught Paarthunax. — Unsigned comment by 71.204.50.95 (talk) on 11 May 2012

Actually, Paarthurnax was the one who taught humans how to use the Thu'um. Jurgen created the Way of the Voice after his meditations revealed that misuse of the Thu'um for battle was what led to the punishment of men by the gods. ThuumofReason 11:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

True Need. Using the thu'um for battle is not necessarily bad, so long as it's done in a time of True Need. The Nords, like the dragons before them, failed when they began making war and seeking power instead of seeking peace and making harmony. And, yes, this article needs some work. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 09:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Mistakes

The last paragraph is rife with errors, Parthurnax taught the first tongues how to use the Thu'um, and later, Jurgen Windcaller formed the Greybeards, which Parthurnax joined, and became a master of while the Greybeards protected him. Vos 09:16, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Preaching to the choir. It's four in the morning where I am, though, and there are only so many horribly defective pages I can overhaul before I snap and head up to a bell tower for some target practice. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 09:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, im sorry for adding to it. keep up the good work though, I commend you for your vigilance to the site Vos 09:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

7 Fights

I noticed the content added that referenced a lot of material from the 7 fights of the Aldudagga were reverted. This information strongly builds on existing Alduin material and provides valuable context on his role as the world eater and gives us a glimpse on what him destroying a kalpa looks like. I endorse it being re added to the page. Also of note is the seven fights is referenced in quite a few lore articles on the wiki, it would be very odd to leave it off of this article in particular given it is mostly about Alduin and Mehrunes Dagon.Dcking20 (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Given that it was couched very clearly in warnings indicating that it was purely according to folklore, I don't understand why it was removed. I apologize for my failure to explain within the edit summary, but the edit otherwise fell well within the OOG use guidelines.

It was to help further elucidate on an ingame topic (criteria one). It was documenting substantial in-world storytelling, not minutae (criteria two) It avoided definitive statements, noting only that it occured within folklore (criteria three). It was low on the page (criteria four). It was not private correspondence (criteria five). My only mistake was not summarizing its inclusion in the Edit Summary. 199.18.232.50 20:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Expands on topics founds in official texts such as kalpas and alduin and marked as uol. Informative and not problematic.Tyrvarion (talk) 22:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I understand where the confusion is coming from, but the stories recounted in the removed edit originated with the Aldudagga: they're not told anywhere in-game. "Some Nord folklore" is Michael Kirkbride's headspace, which isn't inherently "bad" or whathaveyou: three paragraphs being backed solely by a UOL citation is not ideal. That's part of what I was referring to in my edit summary when I mentioned adding new information to lore with UOL.

The two citations that still exist on the page support in-game sources: they don't contradict in-game information, and the claims they're backing up don't solely use the Aldudagga as a source. The Aldudagga is being used to support existing claims derived from information we received from the games.

The new additions didn't clarify any concepts that were unclear: they told three stories that are wholly separate from anything we hear in the games. There are no official sources (to my knowledge: I welcome the notion that I could be incorrect if anyone finds something) that mention the Greedy Man and Dagon's conspiracy to trick Alduin into over-eating. The Dirt Bird and the Snow Whale, while it is one of my favorite stories under the UOL umbrella, tells an entirely new tale that doesn't show up in the games. The only time Dirt Bird is ever connected to the main games in any way is when ESO makes mention of Snow Whales: the rest of the story is entirely disconnected from the (I hate to use this word) canon.

We don't tout stories from the Aldudagga as any major source of historical information in their entirety because they're "not canon": framing them as "folklore" when they're unofficial is inaccurate. The use of a phrase like "folklore claims" etc when referring to UOL usually isn't a problem in and of itself: the issue is that three stories from the Aldudagga were being paraphrased in full and left unsupported by in-game sources. Paragraphs cited solely with UOL aren't clarifying existing information, they're adding new content.

There seems to be a bit of confusion across the namespace as to what "UOL should support existing information" means. I think a good example of UOL doing exactly this can be found on Lore:Molag Bal. Under the Second Era section, a UOL citation is used under the claim (a single sentence) that Bal is rumored to have created the first soul gems. The next sentence clarifies that the rumor isn't entirely basis, using an in-game book to provide evidence that his realm was where Mannimarco's allies found their first black soul gems. As much as I love the Dirtbird cussing up a storm in Molag Bal's face without fear, I can't present that on his lore page as any sort of anything without first finding something in Dirtbird that expounds upon an existing idea.

It would help if we identified precisely which bit of existing material the new additions build on and how, and determine a way to present the information that isn't retelling the events of the Aldudagga themselves and presenting that as folklore without providing "canon" citations. The in-game topic being clarified should not be "Alduin", but something more specific relating to him. Is there anything in the Aldudagga that we could use to add a bit more context to something presented in-game that's a little vague? Is there a question left open in the lore that we could support an answer to with the Aldudagga? I would love to help with finding a way to present some of the information given. —MolagBallet (talk) 22:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Lol I don’t think you realize how patronizing you come across in your delivery here. You keep referencing our ‘misunderstanding of UOL policy'. That’s rich. Lore guidelines are interpretative and *every* unofficial lore entry just like anything on the wiki, is decided by consensus. If the consensus agrees that the information as it was written can stand then that’s really all there is to it. Referencing the lore article that you are the vast majority responsible for and how the uol is used on that page and treating it as the right way that other pages should follow suit with is again, quite patronizing in tone. I don’t think you meant to come across in that way at all but trying to bypass consensus or dismiss three users who are ok with the information being restored with the implication that we are misguided in our views is not the answer. We can start looking for compromises and happy mediums in the event there’s no consensus for the information to remain as it stands, until then I believe the info was fine as it stood.Dcking20 (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I drafted my comment before Tyr chimed in. I am genuinely trying to help here, there's no need for rudeness. You could have just pointed out that my tone came out wrong and left it at that. -MolagBallet (talk) 23:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe that there certainly are means to reach consensus here without taking the information from the page. 7 fights certainly for instance could be mentioned in notes as a uol text that delves into that topic, and I am certain that there are many other ways to resolve this.Tyrvarion (talk) 23:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the above sentiment: the goal of the invitation to discuss this on the talk page was not to unilaterally scrub all mention of the stories from the page, but to find a way to incorporate the information in a less controversial manner. -MolagBallet (talk) 00:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

(←) I do think, some of it should be used for sure, in terms of UoL, relevant and unique stuff, this for example that was written in the page. According to some Nordic folklore, in a previous iteration of the world, Alduin was subject to a scheme by The Greedy Man and the Demon King Dagon, who sought to trap Alduin in a dying world and kill him by tricking him into consuming more than he was able. This scheme was unsuccessful, however, and resulted in Dagon's transformation into the Prince of Destruction. is relevent enough to be included, as it like relevant lore, that is relevant enough to likely be added in as official. So that I think should be included the rest of that, stuff, Alduin/Dagon disguising themselves as Greybeards, I would say is too much. Just the first part with dagon's possible origins, I think is relevant enough and all that is really needed from the Aldudagga. Also https://www.imperial-library.info/content/nords-totemic-religion is something I think should be used on the page since its basically 99/percent canon through ESO,but goes into extra details, that relate to alduin. That is my thoughts on it. Like I said some of it like that stuff above and maybe some uol stuff from The Norid totem relgion but not every single detail from it.TheVampKnight (talk) 05:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

This was previously discussed back in 2013 for Mehrunes Dagon, and the consensus was to remove Seven Fights info from the lore page. —⁠Legoless (talk) 10:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

That was 11 years ago and a different lore article. I’d say the conversation being formed here be the only one worth referencing in terms of a consensus for this Alduin lore page. Dcking20 (talk) 11:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

It's worth considering the arguments all the same, and it needs to be borne in mind if we decide to include a bulk of information here. —⁠Legoless (talk) 15:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Nah not really. Outside of you and Jeancey I see an IP address and a lot of users who aren’t even active anymore and we all know that consensus is updated and decided by the users who are active and around at that given time. I’d rather you give an opinion on this particular instance rather than refer to yours and others opinions from 11/12 years ago. At which point in time it appears you agreed with the Aldudagga information remaining? Dcking20 (talk) 15:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. I was the one who originally added Seven Fights information to the page and argued for its continued inclusion. I'm in favour of mentioning this info in some capacity, but I've been around long enough to know the general consensus on this particular source trends towards exclusion. —⁠Legoless (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I would be in favor of a note. If we can come up with a way to connect it to something we see in game, I would support a mention in the body of the article. My primary issue is that there were three paragraphs backed by nothing but UOL, which is typically something we try to avoid. —MolagBallet (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

(←) I would like to see MolagBallet's addressed before it is added to the body of the article again. Failing that, I would be in favor of Tyr's suggestion of turning it into a note. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 20:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I do believe the info should remain on the article in some capacity. The source tells us about the previous kalpa, something the games can't go much into because it is a time beyond time that most mortals know next to nothing about, and even then it expands on topics from the games like the Greedy Man and Dagon's origins from the Mysterium Xarxes. Its only gotten more legitimacy in the years since like the painted cows, giant origins, and snow whales from Aludagga getting recognition in the main games and I agree with Vamp that its relevant enough, a lot of it has to do with the old Nordic pantheon that has also been expanded on in ESO from Kirkbride's writing. The sentences in the Dawn Era section was fine to keep, as it specified the source's nature as a theological writing. As for the rest, it could go into a note. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 20:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Rim kinda hit the nail on the head. An explicit role of Alduin and various other world eater aspects is the turning of the Kalpa. Lined out in multiple spots in official sources. A big thing the Aldudagga does is give us glimpses into what the end of a Kalpa look like and Alduin’s actions throughout. It feels very aligned with in game lore and if it needs to be worded better to feel more adjacent with in game information to satisfy all parties I’m all for that. Dcking20 (talk) 21:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I re added the passage that seemed to be the least controversial of the three and added the official lore that it builds off of, if anyone has any opinions about this please share.Dcking20 (talk) 16:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Lack of neutrality in the "Aspects" section

Apologies in advance if I sound too aggressive, which is not my intent here. While the "Aspects" section as a whole is fine in that it showcases mythological paralells Alduin has in other religions, the introductory text however, has a clear case of bias towards the "shards of Aka" fan theory.

The text as it was before my edit displayed/displays the following:

"While it is a matter of debate if Alduin serves as a mirror aspect of the likes of the Imperial Akatosh, the Khajiiti Alkosh, and the Elven Auriel who govern time in the general sense, it can be inferred that Alduin governs the sphere of the End of Times giving him more definitive ties to aspects that share that duty."

To start, "mirror aspect"? Just where exactly does such terminology appear in the series that it is being used here? And what does it even mean?

Second, it treats Akatosh, Alkosh, and Auriel as if them being separate deities was a matter of fact, when it clearly isn't.

Dcking20 claims in the edit history that there is "nuance" in this version of the text. I fail to notice its presence.

Hence why I altered the section header to say "Mythological Paralells" instead of "Aspects", and the text to the following:

"Much like his father Akatosh, Alduin has parallels with other mythological figures in cultures across Tamriel. In particular with spirits which, much like Alduin, are said to bring about the end of time."

Dcking20 also claims in the edit history that my edit has "sweeping statements". Besides calling Akatosh the father of Alduin, which is something Alduin himself states (as well as other dragons), I fail to see any "sweeping statements" in my edit - ColovianHastur (talk) 22:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay Dcking20, that new revision is much better. As for the old passage, it seemed, at least from my perspective, that there was a subtle attempt at implying separate Time Dragons. - ColovianHastur (talk) 22:50, 25 October 2024 (UTC)