Daggerfall talk:Weapons

Fixes

Although the "Material Modifiers" table and "Weapon List" table reflect tooltip information shown in game for weapon damage ranges, developers for the Daggerfall for Unity (DFU) project have proven through reverse-engineering the game code that the actual damages applied by these weapons are different - in short, classic Daggerfall's tooltips incorrectly doubled the material modifier values. Moreover, those values do not reflect "to hit" modifiers, but only damage modifiers, representing another error in the UESP page Material Modifiers table. Finally, the modifiers referenced for weapon monetary values on the Daggerfall:Items page are similarly incorrect. Details can be found here: https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2300.

Before I go to the trouble of making extensive changes and notes to these pages, would anyone have any issues with corrections to this end? Thanks! — Unsigned comment by 98.233.184.23 (talk) at 01:22 on 22 July 2019

In my opinion it's more important that the correct information is there in the first place. We can always review formatting at a later time. That said, I think Daggerfall:Critical Strike might be the way to go, although I'd rather see the actual data the most prominent. In-game data is always preferred over the game manual or tooltips. --Ilaro (talk) 14:37, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly - I was the person who started the recent discussion/changes at that page, by the way. Unfortunately, I think I managed to upset one of the other users who attempted to stress the importance of consistent formatting, but I also agree that factual accuracy taking precedence over formatting when the two may be in direct conflict is a no-brainer. There's also the fact that the other user didn't seem to recognize that people very often only focus on snippets of information on a page rather than reading the entire page in one sitting, so leaving a "Description" (per the original title on the Critical Strike page) that's in fact completely inaccurate unexplained in that isolated section is not great practice. But I'll wait to see what others say here, and if there are specific suggestions for changes. E.g. the Material Modifiers table will need some substantial changes for accuracy, but I'm not sure whether this will need a new column to compare the real damage ranges applied in-game vs. the displayed damage ranges shown in weapon tooltips, because unless people are playing with DFU (which everyone should be!), the displayed ranges will continue to appear in game and therefore will need to be clearly addressed somehow on the wiki page. Thanks for the input. — Unsigned comment by 98.233.184.23 (talk) at 17:50 on 23 July 2019

This page is completely different to the other one. This page presumes to show the "base" values of the weapons, plus the material modifications. If, due to a severe bug, the page is instead showing incorrect data then it needs changed. This bug would be explained at the top because of its misleading impact on a players game. There's nothing on this page that is being "quoted" from the game or manual, so there is no need to preserve such information. If you need any help with our tables you can consult Help:Tables, you can use the Sandbox to experiment, and if you created an account you could even create your own sandbox allowing you to take your time on the new page (and a notice can be placed here that work is taking place to fix it). Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 20:04, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

It seems both pages have/had the same issue - information being displayed in the game is inconsistent with the related actual underlying game mechanics. But in any case, thanks for the Sandbox tip and the table help link. In the meantime, I'd appreciate comments on my proposal for the edits needed:

1) Edit the "Material Modifiers" table to split the existing "To Hit/Damage" column into three columns per the reverse-engineering work that's been done. The first would be the "Damage" values as actually implemented in game, the second would be the "Damage" values shown in game but which are incorrect due to the code doubling the modifiers that are displayed, and the third would be a new separate "To Hit" value column, as according to the research, that hit modifier is ten times the material damage modifier rather than being equal to the material damage modifier. I don't think the "To Hit" modifier is displayed anywhere in the game, so I think these three columns should cover all relevant information.

2) Edit the "Weapon List" tables to split the existing "Damage" column into two columns showing "Damage" actually implemented and "Damage" displayed in game. This especially would be a huge amount of work given the number of entries in these tables, so I'd rather others comment here to approve this proposal before I waste time sandboxing changes that are going to be rejected.

3) Finally, the "Bonus to Damage" column in the table on the Daggerfall:Items page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Items#More_Notes_on_Item_Prices) will need to be split into two columns per my proposed edit 2) above.

Thoughts? — Unsigned comment by 98.233.184.23 (talk) at 21:58 on 23 July 2019‎ UTC

(←) Start with one table (say, Daggers) and play around in the sandbox with it. If it works out, you can then just copypaste the table values onto the others. You'll still have to edit the new value into each individual weapon line, but that's not as bad as it sounds as long as you have those numbers available. Also, it would be good to have the formulas on the page somewhere, explaining why the values aren't what they claim to be. Echo (talk) 01:42, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I started to mess about in the sandbox, but then went ahead as a sort of test with editing the Material Modifiers table based on my above proposal. I made only one edit, which would be easy to revert if anyone has any concerns, and of course am open to any comments/corrections, but I think the revision is accurate. Please let me know what you think, and I can then move to changing one of the Weapon List tables in a similar way.

I haven't heard anything here on my changes to the Material Modifiers table, so I also fixed the Daggers table in the Weapon List section per the above notes, as well as the problematic tables on the Daggerfall:Items and Daggerfall:Artifacts pages. Feedback still welcome before I move on to the remaining tables in the Weapon List section on this page. — Unsigned comment by 98.233.184.23 (talk) at 05:03 on 26 July 2019

I haven't heard any concerns here, so per the reverse-engineering work done by the Daggerfall for Unity (DFU) developers as described at the top of this discussion (see especially https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2300#p26931), I've now completed my edits to the following pages; thanks to all for their prior feedback.

1) Weapons (Material Modifiers section - table and notes re: weapon damage modifier display bug and previously incorrect weapon hit chance modifiers; Weapon List section - tables and notes re: weapon damage modifier display bug)

2) Items (More Notes on Item Prices section - table and notes re: weapon damage modifier display bug)

3) Armor (Armor Material section - notes re: non-shield armor modifier display bug)

4) Artifacts (page - tables and notes re: weapon damage modifier and non-shield armor modifier display bugs)

5) All above pages (armor / weapon damage "rating" or "bonus" -> armor / weapon damage "modifier" for accuracy and consistency) Mikeprichard (talk) 14:26, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Weapon Durability

Durability Modifiers by material type (when applicable):

1 Leather/Chain/Iron

1.5 Steel/Silver

2 Elven

3 Dwarven

4 Mithril

5 Adamantite

6 Ebony

7 Orcish

8 Daedric

Weapons:

50 Dagger

50 Tanto

300 Staff

300 Shortsword

200 Wakazashi

600 Broadsword

700 Saber

800 Longsword

600 Katana

1400 Claymore

800 Dai-katana

800 Mace

1000 Flail

1600 Warhammer

1200 Battle axe

800 War axe

50 Short bow

100 Long bow

— Unsigned comment by Iwantyoursmiles (talk • contribs) at 03:47 on 24 August 2023 (UTC)